i am going to let j. r. brown look this one up for himself,.
from day one of this issue being raised the watchtower has maintained there is no problem with child molesters being shielded within the community of jehovahs witnesses.
the questions that beg to be answered are: .
nelly,
the story on that link you provided made my blood run cold!
The elders are so intent on doing things by the book that they would have a 4 year old SIT NEXT TO HIS MOLESTER in a JC Meeting without the parents present?!!!!!!
Abusive? Yes! and unreasonable and unloving.
Yeah, Jehovah's spirit 'flew out the door' as soon as the Mom opened it! [8>]
outnfree
i received this through e-mail on another forum "pioneeroutreach".
fascinating, horrible, reading.
it's long - but guaranteed to leave you thinking "what the ........".
Waiting,
Yes. Thank you very much for sharing.
I did take note of this (as you did):
While Ex does see, now, 3 of the kids, overnights without any real supervision...there is plenty of support for the kids to discuss those visits freely and the counselors get dad in on things better than anyone else ever could and they are doing their best to get him to see the error of his ways. So far, so good. But there was something happening that was troubling the 2 girls, and something different bothering my son; related to visits somehow...now those visits will only be on weekends...and overnights only every other weekend... because Ex lives 200 miles away during the weekdays.
Do you plan to write back to her and point out to her that the three youngest are likely being abused as well? That he likely hasn't stopped? DO these littler ones understand what incest is? What actions constitute improper sexual contact between and adult & a child? These are the ones that have been home-schooled, no?
I am with Gwen in that this woman seems still to be weak about standing up for her children in some ways. She is physically drained, I understand, and still under Borg influence, as well... So if she hasn't the courage or stamina to investigate herself, could she have the professional counselors try to draw the children out with age-appropriate "devices" (for lack of a better word)? AND THEN REPORT the suspected abuse? Please???? Will you be asking her?
The children, the children! This one's going to haunt me...
outnfree
i have been searching the net for some excellent sites on the masons.
this past weekend we went down to nc for a wedding and my wife and i broke the news to our nonjw family that we were no longer involved with jw.
i could not believe the open arm welcome my uncle and aunt were almost in tears- they told us we have seen you come home each yr from the main office in ny and then you got married and you would come home and we wanted to say something about the jw but you seemed to be so well respected by the local jw - whenever we would tell folks that our newphew was up in ny- the jw would get all excited- they told us they thought it was so sad for i only made $90 a month.
jt,
I only know a very little about the Masons. My grandfather was a Past Master and my grandmother was in the women's group -- Order of the Eastern Star. They both were dead before I was 5, so I don't know how it affected their lives (but their only son, my father never joined). I have a Masonic Bible in my home which belonged to them.
I have only recently come into possession of it. However, it has a chart which describes the Structure of Freemasonry.
Basically, there are two "rites" of Freemasonry: the York Rite and the Scottish Rite. For both, one starts out in the Blue Lodge as an Entered Apprentice of the lst degree. After becoming a Master Mason (3rd Degree) the rites diverge. One either progresses to the Royal Arch Mason and proceeds to the Order of the Knights Templar in the York Rite (which the cross & crown found on earlier WT covers symbolizes) or one becomes a Perfect Elu and progresses to Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret (32nd Degree) in the Scottish Rite. In the Scottish Rite there are 33 Degrees. This must be the Rite your uncle belongs to. He would be an "Inspector General" and so is at the top of the game. He is a very powerful, very influential Mason. And, a MASTER at Secrecy, because from what I gather, at each degree one learns more and more what Freemasonry is all about and there are rituals and rites (including secret handshakes) which identify the level of your knowledge. You are not allowed to impart superior knowledge to a lesser degreed Mason.
The Masons trace their heritage to those who worked with Hiram of Tyre to build King Solomon's Temple. Hiram is considered the "Master Craftsman", the "principal architect and engineer" "of mixed race" according to my Masonic Bible (a King James Version with various addenda).
Some say that the Masons are a Satanic cult ... that the symbols which seem to be positive in their rituals have an opposite, satanic countermeaning hidden from the initiates until they have progressed to a certain degree. I do not know whether or not this is true.
This is "A Masonic Creed" according to my Bible (published by A.J. Holman Co., Philadelphia, PA, 1924 and 1932):
"As an expression of the simplest form of the faith of Masonry, not exhaustive, but incontrovertible and suggestive, the following is
THE MASONIC BELIEF
There is one God, the Father of all men.
The Holy Bible is the Great Light in Masonry, and the Rule and Guide for faith and practice.
Man is immortal.
Character determines destiny.
Love of man is, next to Love of God, man's first duty.
Prayer, communion of man with God, is helpful.
Recognizing the impossibility of confining the teaching of Masonry to any fixed forms of expression, yet acknowledging the value of authoritative statements of fundamental principles, the following is proclaimed as
THE MASONIC TEACHING
Masonry teaches man to practice charity and benevolence, to protect chastity, to respect the ties of blood and friendship, to adopt the principles and revere the ordinances of religion, to assist the feeble, guide the blind, raise up the downtrodden, shelter the orphan, guard the altar, support the Government, inculcate morality, promote learning, love man, fear God, implore His Mercy and hope for happiness."
I had bought a very slim volume on Masonry at a Christian Book store, but cannot put my hands on it. I seem to recall that it was okay for Masons to regard ANY Holy Book of any religion, not just the Christian Bible, as a guide in their lives. I believe the reference to the Holy Bible as the "Great Light" has more to do with the heritage mentioned above and Solomon's Temple and its significance to this group.
There is information in this Bible about the rituals (Initiation, Passing & Raising) used in the first three degrees of Masonry -- which is the Blue Lodge level.
From what I can tell, it is another extremely controlling organization. Not sure you'll be able to save your uncle from it -- he's at the GB level, JT -- if that was your intent?
outnfree
this is my first time on a message board relating to anything jw.
i haven't posted anything in the past because i still held to the fear that it would be betraying what i was taught, betraying my family, betraying god.
this is precisely my life as it is now.
Hi, Kat_!
Wow! Your post above could have been written by me (without the family part -- I was the only one sucked in in my family) about 9 months ago. I really identify with the confused feelings and the desire to retain some sort of spirituality. The trips to church, and the resulting wave of panic. The desire to/fear of sharing what I'd learned with others I cared about.
As the others have said, just hang in there, take your time. There really is no rush, and keep repeating to yourself that God is patient and merciful.
I have confidence that you will find your path, given time.
Meantime, welcome to the board, see you in chat, and maybe we'll even get a chance to meet personally in a few months!
outnfree
hey ya'll ... ain't tuesdays, thursdays and sundays even better nowadays ?.
i was wondering what it is that you hated most about the meets ?.
the one thing that used to really rile me was the pressure to control the children - the frowns and the disapproving looks when they were just behaving like normal kids .... the worst of it all for me was seeing any little person being taken outside and hearing the loud slaps even when the door was closed .... what is it that you least miss ?
Oh, nelly!
I am SO sorry to hear about the abuse visited upon you.
I also HATED the spankings, but I must say that at the halls I attended I never saw ANY child hit with a brush, wooden spoon or anything other than an open hand. There WAS one brother who would stifle his children's yells by putting his hand over the child's mouth, and THAT disturbed me. They were quite fair, and the girls' faces would immediately go even redder than before. I bet they have suffocation issues later in life!
And yet, this family was often frowned upon because they DIDN'T spank and the noise level had to get quite high before the hand went over the mouth and the child was taken out to the foyer.
I was one of the people who also DESPISED poor public speakers -- droning on following an outline you'd heard countless times before!
AND I was petty enough to resent not being called on. I was usually well-prepared and the conductors knew this, but it was the times when the question seemed to demand that an ELDER respond, and my hand was up but no ELDER'S was that I grew resentful. I felt it was an insult to my intelligence. CERTAINLY, Sister Always Prepared could answer this DEEP question just as well as any elder who didn't have the gumption to raise his hand in the first place, no???? But the conductor would wait and wait until an elder DID raise his hand. (I guess my vanity's showing! lol)
and then I have to agree with FREE who mentioned being given the TMS talk slip and having Sister Spiritual as your partner! Rarely did I type up a talk until the day before meeting! Even worse, though, might have been having a talk with Sister Impromptu, who would call when I was the householder and say "Well, these are the main points I'm going to cover, and I'd like you to read these scriptures, but there will be no script, because I like to keep it real and casual. You're all right with that aren't you?" (In a word? "NO!" -- but I survived that, too...)
outnfree
just thought i would share with you that i just went to the local "beer gardens" and had a great time!
and i don't feel a bit guilty.
talked to some friends i went to school with, that i hadn't seen in almost 7 years!!!
It IS great, isn't it Sarah?
Just yesterday I blithely told the people in chat that I was going out to a 50th birthday party and afterwards I realized how easily I said that and how nobody really cared or commented on what would have been a big NO-NO some few 5 months ago in my life!
Wait till you go to your ten year class reunion! That'll be a blast, too!
Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!
Best,
outnfree
i was always impressed with the way that william barclay could encapsulate large and very complex issues into, not just a simple form ( are you listening duns!
) but with a sincere purity attached.
i was honored to meet him when i was very young man in my university years and though a convinced atheist at the time who actually shoved socialist newspapers at people in my local high street, i could not ignore the genuine tranquillity that accompanied this wonderful personality.
Hi, all!
I just wanted to say that I read Kent's other posts and am in agreement. There are many important issues at stake here, and we ex-JW's are in a unique position in being able to understand and expound upon those issues so that the public as well as the doubters who lurk get a good grasp on WHY the WTS's policies and practices are dangerous and deceitful.
I also agree with Tina that the best way to stop these flame threads occuring is refusal to participate therein. (I won't even read anything posted by MadApostate anymore -- seems my initial gut feeling about him was correct, after all, though I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.)
Hilary_Step,
Sometimes in my case, and I wonder, jst2laws, if this isn't the case for others as well, I feel that my poor brain has been so underused during my years of JWdom, that I cannot formulate a coherent comment or argument on some of the more intellectual threads. I can recognize their value, understand points of argument, but find it difficult to put myself in league with some of the mental giants (to me) who are on this board.
Francoise,
you seem to be making many references to Gandhi lately. An admirable man. Would you share the title of the work you are or have lately read about him? All I know is what I learned from that movie Ben Gxxx???? starred in years ago. Your point that one can be Christ-like without being "Christian" is well-taken.
and dear gsark,
the "path of healing" is indeed varied and must be so. We are NOT all "cookie cutter ex-dubs" even though the Society tried to make us "Stepford Publishers!" Basic personality traits WILL out, and some are more kindly, others more brash, but ALL are HURTING
I need to rant and rave every once in a while, but I am also trying to do my part individually, publicly and behind the scenes, to push the WTBTS to change its dangerous policies and to encourage right-hearted ones to leave behind the deceit and wickedness.
To my mind, these are the paramount issues. And I DO believe that the longer one is out, the easier it is to focus on the long-term, really important, altruistic issues. But in the short-term, venting one's rage is personally satisfying and a necessary stage in the grief process. Because aren't we all mourning our lost innocence and credulity in believing that the WTS really DID have all the answers and the sure way to God, salvation and paradise?
outnfree
for those who wish to contact barbara grizzuti harrison, she is at: [email protected].
and mentions that she would like to "renew old friendships and talk with old colleagues.
if you haven't read her jw stuff, it is up at:.
She's a babe, Fred, have you seen her picture?!!!???
outnfree
i am going to let j. r. brown look this one up for himself,.
from day one of this issue being raised the watchtower has maintained there is no problem with child molesters being shielded within the community of jehovahs witnesses.
the questions that beg to be answered are: .
Hi, Bill.
Got back to the Board yesterday and had a chance to visit your website and read the sentencing hearing transcript. Incredible, just incredible!!!
Like the others above, I am sickened that Sisti would attack Holly's credibility and that so many of the 'friends' showed up to speak for a CONVICTED child molester. And the judge was NOT swayed by their support!!! Some of them had not even shown up for the trial, yet were there BLINDLY supporting this monster without even knowing the details of the accusations against him. The judge was there, though, and so were the 12 men and women on the jury. And they saw fit to condemn him. And the judge saw fit to make the sentences on various counts NOT concurrent but consecutive. Says a LOT to my mind. And, what? SIX of the jurors showed for the sentencing hearing? to know how it all came out. That also is quite extraordinary, I think. (I was recently at a sentencing hearing for a senseless shooting murder where the judge received a FOOT-high stack of letters from friends and family affected by the murder of a wonderful young man, and yet only ONE juror came back to see how it all turned out.)
The testimony of the 'friends' reminded me of how the neighbors of the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer or other perpetrators of heinous crimes so often say, "But s/he was such a NICE person..."
But Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't. And neither is Paul Berry. And neither are the elders who protected Brother Berry, and counseled Sister Berry
according to Watchtower policy.
I noted in another thread that the supposition was that the WT Society would try to lay the blame at the elders' feet, making them out to be incompetent. Please note that the suit actually says (I'm paraphrasing here) that the WTS is named because the local elders did precisely what they were supposed to in accordance with directives from the Governing Body (believed to be spokesperson[s] for Jehovah God himself).
The elders were fools to blindly follow, but the blame lies at the feet of the GB, as Maximus pointed out elsewhere.
Thank you, Bill, for updating the site to keep pace with these new developments. I had no idea you had this in store for us, too!
Kudos!
outnfree
there's no doubt that in many religious philosophies, believers are advised not to fight with evil; not to resist.
jesus certainly advised his followers not to "resist evil.".
and that's why i'm torn.. i believe, as do most of you here, that the watchtower bible & tract society is evil; a manifest, clear, present, and palpable evil.
Francois,
O'n'F, I'm thinking of Matthew: "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
I understood that. The version I quoted was the NIV.
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And you're welcome for the comments.
peace,
outnfree
