Posts by peacefulpete

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

Forgive my choice of illustrations bt it is for the sake of emotional impact. Prove that the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story did not happen. It is not easy to do is it? If I site biological facts that bears don't talk, the believer in the story will confidentlycall it a miracle. And then tell me that the only reson I don't believe in miracles is because they require faith. To support the believer's position he might site examples observed in the wild when bears have lived in groups of three and he may provide studies of how bears will eat porridge if hungry and occupy abandoned houses. Then to seal his case he might provide psycological findings that prove young girls are fussy eaters! The point is. All stories have elements in them that relate to human realities, we would make no sense of a tale that spoke about unknown characters doing things we have no experience with. The reason we do not believe the Goldilocks story is because of the parts of the story that counter our experience. e.g. Bears talking etc. The only meaningful "proof" for the Goldilocks story then, must explain how the bears spoke in human toungue.

Bibe apologists have compiled thousands of facts that they are convinced support the Bible tales. This is in part possible because the stories were created around at least some historial realities. e.g.: Cities mentioned can often be shown to have existed. Most rulers likewise were real historical figures, some events can be shown thru science to have occured. All nations produced similar legends about their history and rulers, events and people that hitory can often confirm existed are colored with exaggeration and miracle. But it is not these elements of fact that critics of the Bible object to, rather it is the talking donkeys and the turning the Nile into blood, the dead coming to life. As these are counter to logic and human experience and strike a cautious mind as embellishment. The believer once again insists the problem is our faith.

Once again I feel a great opener to this discussion is to require a believer in the Bible to prove that legends like those surrounding King Sargon of Assyria, or the Goldilocks story for that matter, were not true history. Furthurmore a study of the Bible must include a study of the culture of Israel and it's neighbors because nothing grows in a vaccum. This study reveals how abundantly these cultures shared theologically and socially. The absence of any "prophecies" whose writing can be proven to predate it's fullfillment and/or proof that the fullfillment actually occured (the "prophecy" is not a prophecy at all or the fullfillment was a pious fiction) should end the discussion.

By the way we are not an "Atheist society" in fact religious revival has occured as recent polls show. As much as 93 percent believe in a God in the U.S This compared to 67 percent in 1972 poll. When asked why they most often assert it is for scientific reasons. This parallels the steady decline in science scholastic scores. The top 10 science magazines in the U.S. combined are read by less than one half of one percent of the population. We are in trouble as a nation. I just attended a lecture on this topic and left feeling very concerned as this lack of critical thinking skills opens the door for religious and political extremism. Sorry about the lack of formatting, I am unable to do it wit my web tv that I type on.

Edited by - peacefulpete on 4 February 2003 0:53:37

79

everyone voice in

by peacefulpete in

please express in 0ne to three words why you are on this web site.

: angry,confused and desperate,lonely,seeking affirmation,saving souls,to expose evil,curious about apostates, like being naughty, etc.

please limit comment to 3 or less words.

peacefulpete

please express in 0ne to Three words why you are on this web site. e.g. : angry,confused and desperate,lonely,seeking affirmation,saving souls,to expose evil,curious about apostates, like being naughty, etc. Please limit comment to 3 or less words. This will require some reflection and self analysis. No I am not a shrink. I do feel if everyone who reads this contributes their 2 cents we will understand what this site is about better. My reasons for being here involve all of the above but mostly: LOVE OF TEACHING

1

not to be outdone

by peacefulpete in

according to judges 10:3,4 a mannamed jair judged isrel.

he kept his women busy.

it says he had thirty sons (apparently no daughters) who rode thirty asses (a bit odd detail) who had thirty cities.

peacefulpete

According to Judges 10:3,4 a mannamed Jair judged Isrel. He kept his women busy. It says he had thirty sons (apparently no daughters) who rode thirty asses (a bit odd detail) who had thirty cities. Pretty impressive until Judge Ibzan comes along and has thirty sons AND thirty daughters. He then finds thirty daughters from another family to marry his thirty sons who are apparently all approximately the same age in a mass marriage. Judges 12:8,9 Then guess what along comes Abdon who has forty sons but thirty grandsons who rode seventy asses (a bit odd detail) Apparently Abdons forty sons were not the men Pop was as they only mustered up 3/4 son each. 12:13,14 **** Does this sound like history or male bragging?

13

Examples in the Bible?

by happyout in

i am not in a position to do research on this, but maybe someone can help me out.

dubs don't celebrate birthdays because the two examples in the bible were negative, right?

well, each time jesus went into a "temple", didn't he have a negative experience?

peacefulpete

It may be significant that another story has Jesus renouncing the Temple leaders and being chased out, he escapes with his life becase he hides ad runs away. Was this an earlier attempt on the temple when he lacked enough muscle to hold his ground? Or was it just an occasion when he attempted a diplomatic approach and failed. He is said in the Bible version to be using a whip, so even in this reworked account he was assaulting people. Remember too that it was Jesus who is quoted as telling his followers to sell their garments to buy a sword. The gloss that folows this statement is awkward and has confused Christians for centuries indicating a rewriting.

No this position does not pressume Bible errors it just recognizes them.

15

So JW can't receive it but can they give it?

by Jaina in

.

i am a catholic woman who is marrying a jw.....i have posted on this subject alone extensively on the adults and disagreements board so that is not really what i want to discuss here..question is about blood.. my daughter from a previous marriage is type a+ and her father lives 2 states away....now my fiance the jw has the same type blood as her as i do not..i am o+ .....so can a jw donate blood in case of emergency?.

can a jw give blood for testing.....in case of illness or whatever?.

peacefulpete

I seem to remember also that blood salvaging during surgury must be done under vacuum rather than simpler gravity collection so that the JW could rationalize that the blood merely entered an artificial extention of his circulatory system.

21

Do You Still Believe In Some Of The JW Religion?

by SpannerintheWorks in

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which beliefs do you hold on to that you may have previously rejected as a non-jw?.

spanner

peacefulpete

Doctrine is no longer an issue since learning the history of the Bible's formation, but ethics and pop-psychology are the real reason most are JWs, but these are merely extracted from secular souces and respun as Bible advice by skillfully using broad universaly esteemed principles that found their way into the Scriptures. In other words all the valuable advice about family and marriage etc. could be learned elsewhere without the religious twist in the last paragraph. So do I cling to JW teahings? no, I cling to principles that humans univerally recognize as valuable that happened to be in the Bible among other places and seek to apply them as universally as I can.

13

Examples in the Bible?

by happyout in

i am not in a position to do research on this, but maybe someone can help me out.

dubs don't celebrate birthdays because the two examples in the bible were negative, right?

well, each time jesus went into a "temple", didn't he have a negative experience?

peacefulpete

happyout...I don't know your position about the bible but to explain more will require you consider the possibilty that the writings do not represent actual history but rather a religiously motivated interpretation of it. While some go as far as arguing gainst the existance of a jesus at all, most feel the legend was loosely based around a historical figure. The compelling reason for this is irronically the inclusion of irregularities in the stories. For example the detail that Jesus was from Nazareth. It would have been more logical for an entirely fictional Jewish messiah to have been from Jerusalem or Bethlehem. This was covered by the addition of a birth tale in two of the Gospels. The story itself is pulled straight from pagan mythology but the location of birth was then moved to Bethlehem. It was not part of Mark which is regarded as the oldest of the 4 versions. In addition the fake prophecy "quoted" by the writer of Mathew at 2:23 was invented to cover this awkward detail of Jesus having been from Nazareth. So these odd details that don't fit the story well are often analyed as possible historical kernels that were public knowledge by the time these stories were written. Rather than ommittting these kernels they were forced to reinterpret them. The story about the temple cleansing is one of these odd details. The political and religious environment of the time is often poorly understod by those who read these accounts. The Priesthood was considered illegitimate by number of militerstic sects of Judaism due to it's acceptance of Roman presence. A number of armed revolts from these groups attacked not only Romans but even more often Jews. It was reguarded astheir sacred duty as the Bible stories had described Jew killing Jew over issues of idolotry etc. The infamous Daggermen would slip into a crowd of R&F jews and when cued start stabbing. The Zealots where a well known group of armed Jewish resistors. It is speculated that Jesus and his band of followers were actually Zealots who sought to use armed force as well as spoken propaganda to overthrow the priesthood and it was hoped that then God would bless them and help them remove the Romans. Interestingly Peters name is "Simon the Zealot and James and John were called the "sons of rage or thunder". History says that Peter was executed for the murder of one possiby two leaders of a rival sect.(another topic).

When the NT was written much had changed for Christianity. It was now seeking Roman acceptance in the midst of rising Jewish insurrection. The stories were rewritten, implicating the Jewish leaders as the true enemy of Christ and Christians. Another study will reveal that much of what Jesus is quoted as saying in fact was from rabbis of the time and the words put into the mouths of Pharisees would never have happened in light of Pharisitic teaching. The ridiculous words at the supposed trial where Pilate is absolved from all responsibility and the crowd cries out that 'the blood be upon our children' are obvious fictions designed to assuage Roamn relations of the late first and early second century.

Nearly all of the words attributed to Jesus are demonstratively counterfeit. Most are mythic legends from other cults some are direct quotes from other writers, some are later additions to smooth over rough seams in the story. As to the temple story , either it is a kernel of truth about Jesus and his armed band of Zealots explaining his subsequent trial for sedition, or it might refect the activities of another man who's legend became welded to Jesus.' This explanation is consistent with the way religions begin and evolve as well as consistant will NT irregularities with historical records.

A number of books on this subject but I will recommend one: The birth of Christianity Reality and Myth, by Joel Carmichael (1989)

Edited by - peacefulpete on 31 January 2003 14:38:4

28

Help - how to reason from 'best out there'?

by Xander in

okay, another discussion with the brother.

he did mention i was a bad influence, but, feh, he still talks and listens a little, so i'm not too worried.. i've got him whittled down to - "if nothing else, at least this org tries to follow the bible the closest, every other religion has serious flaws.".

this is kind of a hard one to beat, as, in the end, what the society says is generally quite good and positive.

peacefulpete

I'll just repeat that the understsanding that the JWs are the best out there is based upon a rigged criteria. Every Church feels it is the best out there or noone would be members would they? If the criteria is removed from an interpretation of conflicting Bible verses and based entirely upon what is emotionally and socially healthy, the JWs fare very poorly. It is my position that the negative perception of the world and the people in it is a divisive influence that undermines the efforts at world peace and humanitarian causes. There are modern christian denominations that because of a world vision and education in social science teach a very different form of christianity. To do this they likewise interpret the conflicting Bible verses, but do this through the lens of public good. Christianity borrowed most all of it's ethics from preexisting religions but it also retained the worst aspects of sectarianism. Division and intolerance and arrogant complacency. JWs have revived both whereas other churches sought to reinvent Christianity in light of human needs. Best out there? not in my eyes. It has been said that the biggest mistake a man can make is to do nothing whe he could do only a little. JWs not only do nothing but punish members with disfellowshipping who try to improve the world. Justifying this as disloyally wasting time polishing the brass on a sinking ship when our job is to convert more to think pessimistically like them.

30

crelution or evelation

by showme in

creation or evolution?

first as a boy i believed in creation because i heard a preacher say it was true.

then i thought "well, maybe my teacher is right because of fossils and the recorded facts".

peacefulpete

PPete also felt you were lifting his statement out of context to appear to be in agreement. Again I will say this is entirely off topic. First cause arguements are clearly a philosophical debate. Even Occam's Razor is only a wise but uncertain approach for scientific hypotheses. It may be someday possible to explain the appearance of randomness now recognized as an aspect of quantum physics. New rules of physics for the quantum level formulated and this may end the questin of how the chain of cause and effect appear to be broken. This will not prevent the believer from assuming a divine agent pulling the strings to aquire a desired result. This is the enduring aspect of teleological philosophy. Perry is in one camp who "feels" the universe is by intent and assumes a supernatural agency until proven otherwise, as this explains all the yet unexplainable, yet Abbadon and I are in another camp who "feel" a natural explanation for the universe must be assumed until proven otherwise, as this approach has successfully led science to the heights it now has and is therefore deemed by us more conducive to human progress. These dispite all the arguements are personal philosophies. The world is big enough for both.

11

Hebrew translations

by showme in

i first bought a comparative study bible along with the new world translation, so i could compare the differences.

my question though is this.

how can i find a version that might contain the original text, side by side with english translation, or some thing simular.

peacefulpete

I hope you did not pay 30 bucksfor a Kingdom interlinear, theyr'e free at the Hall. A much better choice is the " The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew-Greek-English. By Jay P. Green It is the whole Bible and it is also referenced with Strong's concordance for easy word studies. My copy was about 30 dollars it is large and well bound. Sovereign Grace Publishers. check abe.com or other book selling sites (search book sellers) and you will find one used much cheaper I'm sure.