A guest...as you explained you have "changed your mind" a few times now. Was each change of mind the result of cautious objective analysis or the result of an emotionally attractive theology? You have to answer that for yourself. As for your response...Apparently you feel that discrimination motivated by mercy is not discrimination. Very much like "Affirmative Action" in America? Any role that race plays in this selection process makes the choosing racially discriminating. As a society we in America have decided that this discrimination is tolerable to achieve a greater goal of equal distribution of wealth and education. Has God some similar logic for his actions? Or was it simply a matter of having made an unfortunate promise to Abraham that he is forced to make good on dispite the ethical problems associated with racism? You have made clear that racial purity is not a requirement for inclusion into the 144k, but rather "religious" purity is paramount. As long as there is "a drop of Abraham's blood" in the person they may be chosen as the elite. How would you define this "false religion"? Is it not your belief that the Jews were guilty of great sin by disregarding Jesus' death? Are not all practicing Jews then involved with "false religion"? Or have these Jews(looselyspeaking) become Christians? What sect? Is modern Rabbinic Judaism "true religion"? By what standard? Surely not Bibical as they do not practice Aaronic sacrifices in a temple. If faithful Jews are members of the "great Crowd" as well as the 144k and religiously we can not identify a standard for "false religion" then how is it that these two groups are distinguished?
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
-
36
How can 144,000 be a literal number?
by Pleasuredome inhow does the wts explain that the sum total of symbolic numbers equals a literal number?
rev 7:4-8
logic says that if the sum parts are symbolic, then the total can only be symbolic.
-
-
-
2
Gifts of the Spirit
by Mandybp in.
if i remember rightly the witnesses believe that the gifts of the spirit are not available to them and haven't been since the apostles.. i'm just wondering because jesus placed so much emphasis on healing - it's interesting that the witnesses never mention it (as far as i can remember)
-
-
peacefulpete
I studied with an alcoholic fornicator who regularly spoke in tongues. The hard line that it is all demon deception has been replaced with a degree of understanding of the psychology involved. People within a group that emphasizes the necessity of these gifts as evidence of divine approval in time aquire these "gifts". It has a great self affirmation effect. There was a WT comment some 15 years ago or so that discussed the brain's power to conceal from the person themselves that they are unconciously responsible for this seemingly miraculous autoglossia/tongues. In this they showed a remarkable moderness and social insight. This objectivity is no doubt due to their being divorsed from the practice themselves.
-
20
When did BC become BCE?
by Pleasuredome ini need to know when the wts started to use bce/ce instead of bc/ad.
was this because secular chronology is said to be out by 2 years, and that jesus was really born in 2bc?
so what year did all this start?
-
-
peacefulpete
humanists are evil forces?
-
36
How can 144,000 be a literal number?
by Pleasuredome inhow does the wts explain that the sum total of symbolic numbers equals a literal number?
rev 7:4-8
logic says that if the sum parts are symbolic, then the total can only be symbolic.
-
-
peacefulpete
Aguest...If you choose to believe so noone could dissuade you. If however you are correct then God has arbitrarily limited entry to Jews to a preset quota based upon racial orientation. Or conversly he has extended this honor to the best qualified from among a closed subset which necessarily involves exclusion of more qualified individuals from outside the subset. This also ignores the issue of racial purity. Does a man who has a small amount of gentile/goyim blood in him still qualify? How about the Gentile/Goyim with a small amount of Jew in his blood? what perentage qualifies him for benefits? For American Indians 1/8 stills qualifies a person for government assistance. Will God use the same standard? It is time for logical reassessment.
-
8
son of David?
by peacefulpete induring the first 2 centuries bc and first century ad numerous would be messiahs and jewish militant leaders made claims to being of the tribe of judah and sons of david.
how honest were they?
according to the jewish encyclopedia any tribal claims were meaningless.
-
-
peacefulpete
During the first 2 centuries BC and first century AD numerous would be messiahs and Jewish militant leaders made claims to being of the tribe of Judah and sons of David. How honest were they? According to the Jewish Encyclopedia any tribal claims were meaningless. Any claim to belong to an ancient family line was little more than a propaganda device. Why? Two reasons. First, During the long centuries of Babylonian, Syrian , Greek and Roman rule tribal distinction became impossible. Intermarrying between tribes was not unusual. I estimate that if only 1% of the Jews under this foreign rule married a fellow Jew of a different tribe in less than 200 years or 10 generations nearly every Jew could rightly claim to be of every tribe! Others are welcome to do some math as I am only estimating, but the point is clear. Any claim to be of the tribe of Judah would be nothing more than a politically handy exaggeration. The possible exception is the Levites who may possibly have maintained some semblence of tribal purity due to their occupation thru much of this time.
Secondly, The family records were lost according to Jewish authorities during the reign of Herod 1 (possibly in a earthquake and fire in the temple in 31BC). This was a surprise to me as I was taught that this loss occured in 70CE. The JWs make much of this as disqualifying any self proclaimed Messiahs after 70CE as it was then impossible to "prove" his heritage. According to the Jewish records it really was not possible for about 100 years before that. And as explained above any claim to a tribal identity was meaningless. The Gospel writers include these claims for Jesus but do so in a way that is consistent with the facts here. The "geneologies" are obvious creations, and dealt with in literary fashion. I'm sure this has been discussed here before so I will not expound on the fictive aspects of the two geneologies.
-
24
US "King of the North"?
by patio34 incould it be that since oil rights may be going to us and uk oil corporations, possibly excluding france, russia, etc., that the us/uk coalition could be the new king of the north (kn)?
after all, the daniel book somewhere, and i don't care enough to look.
it's hardly worth mentioning as i don't care what the wtbs says.
-
-
peacefulpete
The book of Daniel contains the workof several authors working at different times. The style and language change as well as the changes in first to third person narration betrays mutiple writers and interpolators. This has been recognized for many centuries. The earliest section (chapters 1-6) includes stories and material dating from the third century or possibly earlier. Chapters 7-12 writer later undergoing final redaction 167-164 BC. A great source book for understanding the book in historical light is the Daniel edition of the series entitled : Interpretation A Bible Commentary for teaching and preaching. Daniel; W.Sibley Towner. The book has helpful timelines. The author has endeavered to present both the historical explanation and theological assessment of the book verse by verse. A1 work.
-
24
US "King of the North"?
by patio34 incould it be that since oil rights may be going to us and uk oil corporations, possibly excluding france, russia, etc., that the us/uk coalition could be the new king of the north (kn)?
after all, the daniel book somewhere, and i don't care enough to look.
it's hardly worth mentioning as i don't care what the wtbs says.
-
-
peacefulpete
If it will be helpful I will later tonight or tomorrow detail the fulfillment of the Kings of the North and South from the perspective of the author writing in the mid 2nd century BC. He drew upon the the recent past and current events of his day. His anticipated imminent triumph of the "chosen ones" in his day did not materialize. If you are a JW or have access to their literature you will find that their interpretation is correct until it leaps 2000 years into the future mid-sentense to make the story appear to extend to our time. This requires a lot of typing so I will wait for a request.
-
5
A question for X-dunkers
by Loris ini have a question for all you x-dunkers out there.
i was dunked in 1965. as i recall the brother who did the dunking said to me, near my ear, "i baptise you in the name of the father, son and holy spirit.
" then he dunked me.
-
-
peacefulpete
The person dunking no longer says anything. He is only a prop.
-
22
It's my birthday, I am mourning my lost childhood.
by aojumper ini am so angry right now, so hurt that my family allowed my brain to be washed and hung out to dry, and then have the nerve to tell me i am on the wrong path.
i wonder how do people let others do this to them?!
i wish i had kept the strength that i remember i had as a very young child and told them all to go to hell!
-
-
peacefulpete
Really check.....How many people in the world have the means to celebrate birthdays and holidays? How many nonJWs have disfunctional families? How many people of all faiths face religious disillusionment at some point in time? People in my peace group have family members that refuse to speak to them because they do not vote Republican! Life is full of turns, this is just your turn. Grieve,sulk, vent and then go on living.
-
22
Did Jesus meet them in Galilee? Contradiction
by peacefulpete inlibrary: magazines: the skeptical review: 1992: number one: did they tarry in the city?
if one were to ask a christian versed in the scriptures if the disciples of jesus met him in galilee after his resurrection, the answer would surely be, "yes, they did.
" after all, matthew, writing about postresurrection events, clearly said, "but the eleven disciples went into galilee, unto the mountain where jesus had appointed them.
-
-
peacefulpete
An additional thought. The solution you have propsed is another way of saying that the author(ostensibly Luke) forgot or ommitted important details that he saw as necessary enough to include them in his second work. Surely if the same author wrote all the words of both books it would be asier to harmonise them. The writer would reasonably have explained how the 40 day delay fit into the Luke narrative that precludes it as written. This also would not explain why Matt. says these events (Apostles first contact with risen jesus, overcomming of doubts, and commision to preach to world) took place in Galilee not Jerusalem as Luke claims. Again it is not a problem if the writer did not intend his work to be read as history as much as an inspiring tale about his "Savior".