Christian (at least some forms of Christian) logic is that God, who can do no wrong, did the great injustice of killing an innocent to punish for the 'sins' of others. This one of the many reasons the Jews took offense.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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Does god punish children for their parents sins?
by moomanchu inezekiel 18: 1-4 , “the word of the lord came to me: ‘what do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of israel: “the parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”?
as surely as i live, declares the sovereign lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in israel.
for everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me.
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Maddison, WI Shool Shooting - 3 Dead
by Sea Breeze inlike the one in tennessee, this one in maddison, wi, was done be a female.
the police chief points out that: .
“yes, i don’t know whether [the shooter] was transgender or not, and quite frankly, i don’t think that’s even important.
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peacefulpete
Right,Left,Up or Down....we have another example of someone filled with hate. If the manifesto proves to be genuine, she had no love for humanity, thought of them as garbage. A dark road to choose.
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Why Did God Create Us?
by Sea Breeze injesus is the creator god, but why did he create us?
what say you?.
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peacefulpete
God likes to play with clay.
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More Menorah
by peacefulpete inanother brief example of ancient traditions reinterpreted by worshipers of yahweh.
the book of exodus 25:.
31 ¶ and thou shalt make a lampstand of pure gold; of beaten work shall the lampstand be made; its base and its branches, its bowls, its knops, and its flowers shall be of the same.32 and six branches shall come out of the sides of it, three branches of the lampstand out of the one side and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side,33 three bowls made like unto almonds with a knop and a flower in one branch, and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch with a knop and a flower; thus in the six branches that come out of the lampstand.34 and in the lampstand shall be four bowls made like unto almonds with their knops and their flowers.35 and there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the lampstand.36 their knops and their branches shall be of the same; all of it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.37 and thou shalt make its seven lamps; and they shall light its lamps, that they may give light over against it.. ok, so there is this strangely detailed description of a sacred golden lampstand, with 7 lamps in a strict formation of 3 branches on each side a single 7th in the center.
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peacefulpete
Kaleb...No offense intended my friend.
The reading in Exodus could have been better written (edited?) but the essential description is fairly clear. (Numbers is pretty brief) I enjoyed the midrash comments that depict Moses' inability to understand the instructions. The proposed visual aids offered him add a humorous touch. Not speaking Hebrew I don't how narrowly the word 'shown' in vs 40 needs be understood, but I can see the same word used in vs 9 in regards the entire tabernacle and furnishings design. That suggests either the word doesn't necessarily imply a vision or conversely the entire section was perceived as a vision at some point. Regardless, it was an entertaining midrash about the confusing description. Thanks for sharing.
Did they just get one from the heathens by then? Not likely since they just had that war with Antiochus IV Epiphanes and purged everything out of Judea that was not "Jewish."
The temple and the menorah were entirely "Jewish" regardless the ancient roots of the decorations and design.
By finding something that looked like what the Jews developed, you "found" a "menorah."
The associations with an 8th century Ashera specifically connected to Yahweh that roughly matches the description from 5th century Exodus, and that also bears a strong resemblance to the menorah design in use in the 2nd century BCE is pretty decent evidence. It also offers a reasonable explanation for the vigorously detailed vegetal decoration. The evidence seems just as persuasive as that used to connect the Christmas tree with Druid use of evergreens in their religious ceremonies. That was the point of this thread after all.
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God or Satan?
by peacefulpete inthe theme of my recent comment in another thread demonstrated how in some circles the 'word/logos' had become understood to be implied within ot texts that mention an angel or destroyer (in the case of ex 12).
the comment got no response so i'll repost it now as a springboard for a further observation:.
here's another example of the extreme personification of the logos/word from the wisdom of solomon (approx.
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peacefulpete
That question of timing and influence will be debated forever. In many researchers' minds the Greeks (broadly speaking) are the beginning of the whole genre of the 'saga' and it must be said their reach and influence predates, by hundreds of years, the empire of Alexander through trade, mercenaries and migration...Philistines???
The general argument is that the increasing sophistication of Yahwist scribal theology motivated introjections into both rival their national saga (Primary History). The insertion of an angel or Word or Glory is rather clearly a secondary layer. The most likely period for this was the 4th-3rd century BCE IMO. Whether this is the direct result of Greek exposure (post Alexander) is speculative. Until recently I favored this idea, and many still do, but the underlying premise is that the Judeans (or Diaspora) were somehow primitive, less culturally advanced than the empires that repeatedly laid waste to them. That is just not supported by evidence. Wherever the Jews found themselves (Babylon, Peria, Egypt) they asserted an influence and found respect in intellectual circles.
Regarding the Logos terminology, that was the work of great Greek minds specifically. The record is pretty clear on that point. That does not mean other thinkers had not arrived at something somewhat similar. That is likely the case here. While the Alexandrian Jews especially, adopted the language of Neoplatonism, their message would have been familiar to a broader audience. Just how indebted the scribes that introduced the 'Angel of the Lord' (and Glory, or Word, or Name) were to the Greeks is impossible to quantify.
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More Menorah
by peacefulpete inanother brief example of ancient traditions reinterpreted by worshipers of yahweh.
the book of exodus 25:.
31 ¶ and thou shalt make a lampstand of pure gold; of beaten work shall the lampstand be made; its base and its branches, its bowls, its knops, and its flowers shall be of the same.32 and six branches shall come out of the sides of it, three branches of the lampstand out of the one side and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side,33 three bowls made like unto almonds with a knop and a flower in one branch, and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch with a knop and a flower; thus in the six branches that come out of the lampstand.34 and in the lampstand shall be four bowls made like unto almonds with their knops and their flowers.35 and there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the lampstand.36 their knops and their branches shall be of the same; all of it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.37 and thou shalt make its seven lamps; and they shall light its lamps, that they may give light over against it.. ok, so there is this strangely detailed description of a sacred golden lampstand, with 7 lamps in a strict formation of 3 branches on each side a single 7th in the center.
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peacefulpete
I'm going to disagree on your assessment of the likelihood of antiquity of the menorah design. I do recognize the mythic aspects, such as the expansive united monarchy, but given the extrabiblical evidence for the worship of Yahweh (and Ashera), it would be more incredible if they had not had some kind of temple much like described, filled with cherubim, pomegranates, brazen bulls, sacred pillars and Ashera shaped lampstand. Maybe not covered in gold but the pattern and iconography are typical of the region. Whether that design dated to the 7th or the 10th century is not really important.
Actually, none of it is important, but for the sake of some here who think it is, I post stuff like this.
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God or Satan?
by peacefulpete inthe theme of my recent comment in another thread demonstrated how in some circles the 'word/logos' had become understood to be implied within ot texts that mention an angel or destroyer (in the case of ex 12).
the comment got no response so i'll repost it now as a springboard for a further observation:.
here's another example of the extreme personification of the logos/word from the wisdom of solomon (approx.
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peacefulpete
Kaleb isn't suggesting otherwise, he's just demonstrating a peace with his culture's unique adaptations to the tides of history. A pretty healthy outlook IMO. -
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God or Satan?
by peacefulpete inthe theme of my recent comment in another thread demonstrated how in some circles the 'word/logos' had become understood to be implied within ot texts that mention an angel or destroyer (in the case of ex 12).
the comment got no response so i'll repost it now as a springboard for a further observation:.
here's another example of the extreme personification of the logos/word from the wisdom of solomon (approx.
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peacefulpete
Lots of good stuff in that comment again.
especially this:
This means that a MALAKH YHWH is not necessarily a traditional "angel" that you think of in common literature or art. It merely means that God is coming forth in a different representation or form to send a message or word.
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More Menorah
by peacefulpete inanother brief example of ancient traditions reinterpreted by worshipers of yahweh.
the book of exodus 25:.
31 ¶ and thou shalt make a lampstand of pure gold; of beaten work shall the lampstand be made; its base and its branches, its bowls, its knops, and its flowers shall be of the same.32 and six branches shall come out of the sides of it, three branches of the lampstand out of the one side and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side,33 three bowls made like unto almonds with a knop and a flower in one branch, and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch with a knop and a flower; thus in the six branches that come out of the lampstand.34 and in the lampstand shall be four bowls made like unto almonds with their knops and their flowers.35 and there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the lampstand.36 their knops and their branches shall be of the same; all of it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.37 and thou shalt make its seven lamps; and they shall light its lamps, that they may give light over against it.. ok, so there is this strangely detailed description of a sacred golden lampstand, with 7 lamps in a strict formation of 3 branches on each side a single 7th in the center.
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peacefulpete
Another brief example of ancient traditions reinterpreted by worshipers of Yahweh.
The book of Exodus 25:
31 ¶ And thou shalt make a lampstand of pure gold; of beaten work shall the lampstand be made; its base and its branches, its bowls, its knops, and its flowers shall be of the same.
32 And six branches shall come out of the sides of it, three branches of the lampstand out of the one side and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side,
33 three bowls made like unto almonds with a knop and a flower in one branch, and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch with a knop and a flower; thus in the six branches that come out of the lampstand.
34 And in the lampstand shall be four bowls made like unto almonds with their knops and their flowers.
35 And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the lampstand.
36 Their knops and their branches shall be of the same; all of it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.
37 And thou shalt make its seven lamps; and they shall light its lamps, that they may give light over against it.Ok, so there is this strangely detailed description of a sacred golden lampstand, with 7 lamps in a strict formation of 3 branches on each side a single 7th in the center. The whole lampstand was covered in symmetrical decorations of almond tree blossoms, fruit (nuts/nobs). Naturally many have pondered why this particular design. What was the symbolism?
It was long suggested a connection to Ashera, the goddess often associated with trees especially fruiting ones as a symbol of sexual fertility. This is a huge topic if anyone wishes to pursue it, but to be brief, iconography from throughout the ancient Near East suggest that often the trees were pruned and shaped in a particular fashion to represent the goddess. Typical of the period is illustrated with the iconography from Kuntillet Ajrud (800 BCE) which has the added element of referring to Yahweh and his Ashera (wife/lover).
The Asherah, the Menorah and the Sacred Tree - Joan E. Taylor, 1995
Regarding the 7 lamps/candles, the significance of the number 7 in many religious contexts prevents any definitive explanation, however the one assumed by Philo may be sufficient for this discussion:
(WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS)
XLVI (215) For the divisions into two equal parts which have been mentioned become six in number, since three animals were divided, so that the Word which divided them made up the number seven, dividing the two triads and establishing itself in the midst of them. ......(221) This much alone we must remind our readers of at this moment, that the sacred candlestick and the seven lights upon it are an imitation of the wandering of the seven planets through the heaven. How so? some one will say. (222) Because, we will reply, in the same manner as the lights, so also does every one of the planets shed its rays. They therefore, being more brilliant, do transmit more brilliant beams to the earth, and brilliant beyond them all is he who is the center one of the seven, the sun. (223) And I call him the center, not merely because he has the central position, as some have thought, but also because he has on many other accounts a right to be ministered unto and attended by the others accompanying him as bodyguards on each side, by reason of his dignity and his magnitude, and the great benefits which he pours upon all earthly things. (224) But men, being unable completely to comprehend the arrangement of the planets (and in fact what other of the heavenly bodies can they understand with certainty and clearness?) speak according to their conjectures. And these persons appear to me to form the best conjectures on such subjects, who, having assigned the central position to the sun, say that there is an equal number of planets, namely, those above him and below him. Those above him being Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars; then comes the Sun himself, and next to him Mercury, Venus, and the Moon, which last is close to the air. (225) The Creator therefore, wishing that there should be a model upon earth among us of the seven-lighted sphere as it exists in heaven, explained this exquisite work to be made, namely, this candlestick. And its likeness to the soul is often pointed out too; for the soul is divisible into three parts, and each of the parts, as has been already pointed out, is divided into two more. And thus there being six divisions, the sacred and divine Word, the divider of them all, very naturally makes up the number seven.
Here Philo relates how the 5 visible planets and the moon represented the branches and the Sun aka the Logos/Word was the center.
In short, we have evidence that the Temple menorah design was a representation of a fruiting, stylized Ashera tree. The 7 lamps may well have represented the 7 principle astrological lights. Philo and his contemporaries (like Christians) had further associated the Logos with the sun.
Does this example suggest the writers of the Torah objected to reinterpretation of ancient enduring symbols? The Temple menorah was a stylized Ashera tree. Vegetal associations with life and fertility are similarly behind the modern Christian use of the Christmas tree. I don't see the difference myself.
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God or Satan?
by peacefulpete inthe theme of my recent comment in another thread demonstrated how in some circles the 'word/logos' had become understood to be implied within ot texts that mention an angel or destroyer (in the case of ex 12).
the comment got no response so i'll repost it now as a springboard for a further observation:.
here's another example of the extreme personification of the logos/word from the wisdom of solomon (approx.
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peacefulpete
To spring off Jeffro's comment, the word 'satan' has shades of meaning ranging from 'opposer' to 'accuser' and is used in reference to humans as well as spirits. Likely through 5th century extended contact with Zoroastrianism's Ahriman (the hypostasis of destruction) the idea of a 'satan/accuser/executioner' in God's heavenly court arose. It seems in the first few centuries of use, that 'satan' was an agent of God for the purpose of testing and prosecuting evil. Just as happens in human courts that prosecutor at times charges innocents, requiring a testing of the accused. That is the role seen in Zechariah and the prose story in the opening of Job. In Job it is explicit that the 'the satan' character throughout is acting under the authority of God, even the devastation of Job is attributed to forces of God. In light of this, it is not surprising the Chronicler introduced 'satan', an agent of God (the accuser/opposer in God's court) when he saw God himself inciting David in his source.
As we know the 'satan' character was later understood in only negative context, as one who brings grief to the god-fearing, and one who abused his position, and the generic word became a proper noun.