Posts by KalebOutWest

13

Elders, Jews and Dead Bunnies

by KalebOutWest in

i thought i would give my personal experience on who i am, how i came into the world of watchtower, why i left, etc.

this would explain a lot about the answers i give and why they don't directly reflect my personal convictions (like a normal person--and i do mean that literally, kinda).

i cannot put everything here, but i can start bit by bit.. when i was 17 years old, my mother was on her third marriage and kinda starting her fourth (as she was dating this surfer dude-like guy who wasn't even 5 years older than me).

KalebOutWest

Happy Holidays 😊

39

Merry Christmas Everyone

by jhine in

it's that time of year again .

in the words of the bard ( noddy holder ) " it's christmaaas " .

merry christmas everybody .

KalebOutWest

Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah...or since I am Jewish, and since this year Hanukkah begins on the evening of the 25th of December, Happy Chrismukkah!

This photo is from a previous "Chrismukkah" celebration, in 2005. Yes, this was the actual color of the lighting from the tree and the lights.

(And for those who might wonder, this was the first night of Hanukkah, but the electric hanukkiah in the photo is an outdoor Hanukkah menorah and was therefore lit from the outside instead of inside. When that happens it appears backward in light order when viewed from the inside. Usually on the first night of Hanukkah you would see the first candle on the right in a photo, but only if you were looking at the menorah from the front and it was lit from the inside. Some have asked about this--Jewish rules, sigh!)

While I have several menorahs, some with candles that I light for Hanukkah, I tend to use electric ones in the windows and for the outdoors, like the new red one down below. My other half is a Catholic, thus there is always a Christmas tree in the house come December. (If the JWs could see me now--so many holidays thru the year!)

13

Elders, Jews and Dead Bunnies

by KalebOutWest in

i thought i would give my personal experience on who i am, how i came into the world of watchtower, why i left, etc.

this would explain a lot about the answers i give and why they don't directly reflect my personal convictions (like a normal person--and i do mean that literally, kinda).

i cannot put everything here, but i can start bit by bit.. when i was 17 years old, my mother was on her third marriage and kinda starting her fourth (as she was dating this surfer dude-like guy who wasn't even 5 years older than me).

KalebOutWest

Jeffro, I wasn't saying the test had anything to do with Judaism itself.

This was meant to be a joke at those two elders (and people like them) who claimed they know all about Jews.

If you notice, the reference claims that 'all doctors were Jewish' back then (a stereotype) and a reference to the Yom Kippur ritual as well as pregnancy tests, modern and past being "voo-doo."

Both of the elders who insisted that I become one of Jehovah's WItnesses when I was 17 claimed to know exactly what they were talking about, that I wasn't Jewish. It turned out I was indeed a Sephardic Jew and just a few years later with the help of both Jewish and Christian clergy traced my family line back to the days of the Spanish Inquisition (and possibly further). I was also related to countless others who perished in the Holocaust.

It turned out it was those two JW elders who were the ones practicing the real voo-doo.

Jews tend to be self-deprecating as we generally have high self-esteem. We are told we are valued, we can make a difference, and we are equipped through life and through community to do so. Our religion, however, well, we are taught it's pretty much mythology and, yes, it was kinda voo-doo. So there's a lot of humor in it.

I mean, generations ago on the Day of Atonement we threw innocent goats over cliffs and thought that meant God would forgive us.

If there really is a God, don't you think God would be pretty pissed that we threw his goats over cliffs? How on earth does a society equate atonement of sins by punting goats into a deep gulch and thinking, "Yep, we good"?

Jeffro, please, take it from me. If you don't start seeing the humor in things, you are going to end up being as stuck and stupid as those two elders still are.

Your constant following me around on this site to find flaws in everything I say is exhausting. Move on.

9

Jolene Chu and Ollimatti Peltonen publication

by careful in

just published in cambridge university press's elements in new religious movements series, a short book or oversized pamphlet is now available by two witnesses, jolene chu from warwick and ollimatti peltonen from the selters branch.

https://www.amazon.com/jehovahs-witnesses-elements-religious-movements/dp/1009509764.

it's small, just 84 pages, including the bibliography.

KalebOutWest

A highly problematic work.

It is academically dishonest in many places. For instance, on page 14, in the 2nd paragraph from the top, the claim is made that during Russell's lifetime the early Bible Students "concluded that 1914 had marked the beginning of Christ's heavenly rule." This, we know is not true. The earlier 1874 date for the parousia of Christ according to their doctrine was not revised until after WWII. 1914 did not mark the "return" to Christ's rule until the late 1940s.

The claim that the Governing Body never said they were a prophet and their failure regarding 1975 is highly glossed over on page 23.

By page 25 it begins to read like a glorified Watchtower publication, not an academic paper, sounding preachy and attempting to proselytize. It is just too much to stomach, really.

The "Exit and Reentry" list adapted to fit the Watchtower reminds me how this same argument was applied by Mormon leaders not too long ago. They used this argument to explain that those who were leaving were to blame, not the Mormon leaders who may have lied or made up stories about Joseph Smith and the origins of the Book of Mormon. The application of similar data towards exJWs sounds like Watchtower has been coached or is stealing from someone else who already "sang that song."

While I may be wrong, this smells fishy and the "academic" Witnesses who wrote this were just pawns working as beards and pawns for the Watchtower attempting to produce something for some scheme to use in a legal battle.

13

Elders, Jews and Dead Bunnies

by KalebOutWest in

i thought i would give my personal experience on who i am, how i came into the world of watchtower, why i left, etc.

this would explain a lot about the answers i give and why they don't directly reflect my personal convictions (like a normal person--and i do mean that literally, kinda).

i cannot put everything here, but i can start bit by bit.. when i was 17 years old, my mother was on her third marriage and kinda starting her fourth (as she was dating this surfer dude-like guy who wasn't even 5 years older than me).

KalebOutWest

Thanks everyone.

The whole thing came down to the fact that Elder Barry (the main elder who was studying with me--not his real name) had originally belonged to this weird Penecostal church that had taught Jewish deicide. Barry had been attracted to the Witnesses back in 1973/74 on account of the "1975--End of the World" commotion, and so he was an emotional, dramatic kinda guy.

It was November 1984 when all this was happening. So the Witnesses themselves still were spinning and trying to figure out if the end was still going to come any day now (they believed that maybe there was this math involving Adam being in the garden naming the animals until God put him to sleep to make Eve out of his rib and then that was how long you could count from 1975, therefore, any day now--KABOOM!).

Witnesses themselves are not normally this antisemitic as a rule. This was mostly a holdover from that church Barry had attended. I would later trace his weird comments to pamphlets from that group as none of what he said (some of it was too horrible to print here) came from Watchtower materials.

There was this pioneer friend and his married elder buddy that would come by my place all the time. The elder would often drop by after his work, usually when I was showering (he seemed to always know) to "use the bathroom"--WHILE I WAS IN THE SHOWER!

Handsome guys. Tended to wear little clothing. Liked to invite me over for sleepovers. I think I was once supposed to be a "pillow" and it was almost a Pillowgate situation, I think. I slipped out of that quite quickly once I got a bad vibe. I was so naive.

13

Elders, Jews and Dead Bunnies

by KalebOutWest in

i thought i would give my personal experience on who i am, how i came into the world of watchtower, why i left, etc.

this would explain a lot about the answers i give and why they don't directly reflect my personal convictions (like a normal person--and i do mean that literally, kinda).

i cannot put everything here, but i can start bit by bit.. when i was 17 years old, my mother was on her third marriage and kinda starting her fourth (as she was dating this surfer dude-like guy who wasn't even 5 years older than me).

KalebOutWest

I thought I would give my personal experience on who I am, how I came into the world of Watchtower, why I left, etc. This would explain a lot about the answers I give and why they don't directly reflect my personal convictions (like a normal person--and I do mean that literally, kinda). I cannot put everything here, but I can start bit by bit.

When I was 17 years old, my mother was on her third marriage and kinda starting her fourth (as she was dating this surfer dude-like guy who wasn't even 5 years older than me). My mother was a very beautiful woman. My father was very handsome. (The surfer dude was kinda fat.) The two were the "black sheep" of each of their respective families when they had married one another. They also had a very wealthy and rocky marriage, divorced when I was 13, and took off to marry and divorce as many people as they could in a race against one another that seemed like a game show competition.

It was at this time that I got involved with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I had had an aunt named Faith who had been a Witness, and she used to comment here as well but she recently passed. She was a pistol. Anyway, she watched over me because my mother tried to steal a lot of money from hubby number three (he was loaded) to finance marriage to hubby number four (which never panned out). Concerned that I would learn of her (illegal) plan and spill the beans, my mother and older brother Seth* devised a plan to get me out of the home and out of their hair.--*I have changed names to protect the innocent, mostly me.

Confusing my aunt with the Mormons, Seth told my mother that since I was so good at following rules that I should be sent to live with my Aunt Faith, as "she was a Mormon" and they have a "college program or something like that." So off I went.

Auntie Faith was neither Mormon nor was there any "college program."

I began to study a book with some elders called You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth. I went through a couple of weeks worth when suddenly my father came through and pulled my family together for a meeting and told me to tell the elders something that they eventually told me was, and I quote: "A Devil-inspired lie, made to pull you away from the truth." I was told that "Satan was just trying to do everything in his power to stop me from studying and getting my family to start persecuting me because he knew this study meant my eternal life."

What was this "lie"? 17 year-old me had to tell them: "My parents want me tell you that I have to stop the study as we are Jews and I can't participate in this study program as you are Jehovah's Witnesses and as a Jew I can't get involved in a religion that leads to baptism." I had to memorize this little speech, by the way, so I still remember it.

That week's study I was shown pictures of the Temple mount in Jerusalem by the elder from the old Aid book, and that same elder was telling me that God put an "Allah Temple" there "to purposefully insult the Jews because they murdered Jesus!"

The expression that those words (and his horrific vocabulary) put on my face reminded me of the expression my younger brother Ethan had years later. I eventually was out of the Organization at that time and we were in his living room. Miriam, a P.E. teacher, had run in with a net. "What is that for?" he asked her.

"It's to catch poopies," she said. "When she gives birth, your wife is going to make poopies into the pool."

Being told I wasn't Jewish and that Jews murdered Jesus and that the Dome of the Rock was an "Allah Temple" made by God to insult us Jews was like watching my younger brother, Ethan, in shock. His wife was having natural childbirth in a pool of water that was situated in their living room surrounded by "guests" that they had invited for the event. I too was invited, but I didn't want to be there. (Definitely not.)

"Ethan! Ethan, are you okay with this?" I asked. He had an expression of shock on his face. Of course he had an expression of shock on his face. Not only was his wife giving birth in a kiddie swimming pool in their living room surrounded by relatives, friends, and strangers with a lesbian from the local synagogue picking up stray "poopies" with the net from Mr. Hartman's pool net from next door (I sure hope nobody told him what they did with it after they returned it), his expression was obviously in shock because 9 months prior to this, his wife Sara had stuck a pregnancy test in his face.

Have you ever had a pregnancy test stuck in your face? It's a stick that someone has just recently peed on. Who cares if it says you are about to have a child? Someone is putting a stick in your face that they have just peed on. That is what causes the expression of shock that today's fathers all have on their faces. Pee-stick face.

My father and father's of yesterday did not have pee-stick face back then. Back then they just killed a bunny rabbit to test if you were pregnant. Back then all doctors were Jewish, and there was this ancient Jewish ritual based on Yom Kippur's scapegoat that could also tell if a woman was pregnant. But instead of using two goats and tossing one over a ledge to purge you of all sins, you merely used two bunnies--and if during this Jewish voo-doo ritual you got this "signal" from HaShem, one of the bunnies would be tossed over the ledge as well and you would tell the patient that she was expecting. Hence the old saying: "The rabbit died."

Of course, since I was told I was not a Jew by those bastard elders who really knew nothing about me, my family, and Judaism, this family experience was almost lost to history save the fact that I ran off from those JWs when I was old enough...which was another story entirely. But I transgress.

Instead of watching Fishing for Poopies in my younger brother's living room, I could have insisted on remaining a Jehovah's Witness all those years ago, learning about how I wasn't Jewish (and all about "Allah Temples"). I could have been part of the new Roku JW generation who grew up with rubber-face Stephen Lett who looks like he's fished for too many (and caught some) poopies in his lifetime, and still waiting with my (gay) pioneer friend (who was in denial) for an end to this system of things that would never come. (More on that later.)

My father was murdered by the sons of his fourth marriage (allegedly) and my older brother Seth (allegedly) tried to kill my mother and is still on the run to this day (he was last seen disguising himself as a Chasidic Jew and arguing with a Catholic nun in a Catholic hospital and telling her why "Jesus is not the Messiah"). Mother is in the last stages of Alzheimer's in a special facility (but she was almost in a state prison cell for life for that money scheme). The rest of my family is pretty normal, for a bunch of "Jesus murders" (allegedly).

More to come. Just 6 days till Chanukah. So nice to be part of the normal world and not in a cult, right?

5

More Menorah

by peacefulpete in

another brief example of ancient traditions reinterpreted by worshipers of yahweh.

the book of exodus 25:.

31 ¶ and thou shalt make a lampstand of pure gold; of beaten work shall the lampstand be made; its base and its branches, its bowls, its knops, and its flowers shall be of the same.32 and six branches shall come out of the sides of it, three branches of the lampstand out of the one side and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side,33 three bowls made like unto almonds with a knop and a flower in one branch, and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch with a knop and a flower; thus in the six branches that come out of the lampstand.34 and in the lampstand shall be four bowls made like unto almonds with their knops and their flowers.35 and there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the lampstand.36 their knops and their branches shall be of the same; all of it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.37 and thou shalt make its seven lamps; and they shall light its lamps, that they may give light over against it.. ok, so there is this strangely detailed description of a sacred golden lampstand, with 7 lamps in a strict formation of 3 branches on each side a single 7th in the center.

KalebOutWest

Well, like those missionaries who came to my door and, after I pointed out that they misrepresented the Hebrew they were claiming they said they knew--and I pulled out my copy of the Torah and kindly pointed out their error, one of them said to me, very angrily:

"WHAT DO YOU JEWS KNOW ABOUT THE BIBLE?!"

What you just posted is like telling a Native American they don't know the facts about their own history or have it wrong and you, a foreigner, know better than they do.

I tip my hat to you and everyone who agrees with you, believing that this represents rational thinking.

34

Why Did God Create Us?

by Sea Breeze in

jesus is the creator god, but why did he create us?

what say you?.

KalebOutWest

I drove by a large sign the other day that read: "Jesus is the answer." Oddly I don't know what the question is...("What is the name of my sister Lupita's husband?)

As an exJW Jew, I can only say the following: the Hebrew Bible is not a book of answers. It is a book of questions.

Jacob is not a faithful man of blind obedience. He "wrestles with God."

Job asks God questions only to get more questions in response: "Where were you when I founded the earth...?"

We came from a system, the Watchtower, that claimed to have "all the answers," so we expect to find them, about life and God. But religion is meant to be a big question. Cults claim to have the answers.

Beware the man who claims to have all the answers.

5

More Menorah

by peacefulpete in

another brief example of ancient traditions reinterpreted by worshipers of yahweh.

the book of exodus 25:.

31 ¶ and thou shalt make a lampstand of pure gold; of beaten work shall the lampstand be made; its base and its branches, its bowls, its knops, and its flowers shall be of the same.32 and six branches shall come out of the sides of it, three branches of the lampstand out of the one side and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side,33 three bowls made like unto almonds with a knop and a flower in one branch, and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch with a knop and a flower; thus in the six branches that come out of the lampstand.34 and in the lampstand shall be four bowls made like unto almonds with their knops and their flowers.35 and there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, and another knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the lampstand.36 their knops and their branches shall be of the same; all of it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.37 and thou shalt make its seven lamps; and they shall light its lamps, that they may give light over against it.. ok, so there is this strangely detailed description of a sacred golden lampstand, with 7 lamps in a strict formation of 3 branches on each side a single 7th in the center.

KalebOutWest

It's very possible. The Jews could likely have done this. You actually took the easy way out.

By finding something that looked like what the Jews developed, you "found" a "menorah." This is something that is quite logical. We don't know, of course, but it is possible. However, that I do want to add the following about why this is funny altogether...especially since Chanukah (Hanukkah? Kanike?--Yes, that last one is a real spelling. Yikes!)

A Confusing Text in Hebrew that Doesn't Read "Straight" and "Is Missing Pieces"

What I hate about English translations of the Bible is that they sound like Cecil B. DeMille is trying to make a religious movie out of it--stuffy, proper, showy, well-designed, on-stage. It doesn't take a scholar or academic to learn Hebrew or Greek. You can learn to pronounce the letters of either in about an hour or two and be reading in an afternoon. Hebrew especially is very simple. The rules never change.

But expect be disappointed sometimes. The Bible doesn't read the same in the original languages as it does in the translations. Ever heard of "lost in translation." This is sort of the opposite. While you gain a lot of insight, you also lose the fakery and puffery those versions of Scripture often try to "frost" the Bible with.

One of the parts of the Bible that they do this to is the part of the "menorah," Exodus 25:31-40. You think you know what a menorah is, right? It's because you've seen one.

Or, you think you have. That is why you think it looks like what you pictured above. (You just think you found what looks like a "menorah," but you just wait!)

Ha ha ha. You're wrong. Guess what. This is one of those parts of the Bible that when you learn to read the original Hebrew it will leave you scratching your head: "Did I not learn something correctly? Is my Hebrew Bible missing something? Maybe I should ask somebody something about this." Bits and pieces seem to be missing. It seems to be saying things again and again and yet nothing. You read words and words and words and yet you read nothing. You end up just wanting to rip the words up and eat them so you can poop them out.

Yep. If you don't understand what you just read and can't describe what was described to you when you get to it, then you read it correctly:

The menorah is described in great and even confusing detail two times in the Torah. This is an almost compulsive word picture, whether in translation or in the original Hebrew. The constant repetition of the need to have almond-shaped cups, bulbs, and flowers is especially opaque.--Menorah, It's "Branches" and Their Cosmic Significance: TheTorah.com.

It's the oy-vey of Bible reading. According to a metaphor in the Midrash Tanḥuma, the reason why it reads so confusing is that when God showed him the object and wanted him to write down what he saw, Moses himself didn't know what he was looking at. Nahmanides also agreed, as did the twelfth century scholar Moses Maimonides (whose name may sound similar) and drew schematics that looked similar to giant those Chanukah menorahs you see today placed around cities and towns that have angular shapes instead of curved arms. (It looked like something out of the 1960s space age instead of the Middle Ages--not kidding!)

One of the reasons we accept a seven-branched "curved" arm menorah is not because the Jews originally created such one for their Temple or borrowed such from heathens or pagans (though that would have been a good idea--and they might have if they were smart). But it appears the idea came from something as simple as a lack of space.

What Do King Arthur and King Solomon Have in Common?

While King Arthur is a legendary figure, there is a tiny bit of historical evidence that suggests that he may be based on a genuine Saxon hero of the past. The same is true of King Solomon. It appears that while we have some evidence that he was a genuine son of David, everything else we know about him is legendary--yes, even in the Bible...and that means all the stories about his kingdom and the Temple.

This means there was no menorah--at least no menorah from Solomon's Temple like you imagine (sorry, JWs).

We do know that there was one from the days of the Hasmoneans--you know, the one's who gave us Chanukah (though the "miracle" of the 8 days is another story). By their time we believe we might have a menorah similar to what we know today. Did they just get one from the heathens by then? Not likely since they just had that war with Antiochus IV Epiphanes and purged everything out of Judea that was not "Jewish." So where did it come from if Solomon was a legend?

The earliest image of a menorah appears on a coin of the Hasmonean Mattathias Antigonus (39 BCE), who minted a small bronze coin. It is after that that the "common" image of the "curved" menorah becomes the standard.

Was this the menorah that was always the type the Jews used before? Who knows. But it fits on a coin--and thus it became the "emblem" of a nation. Not the Star of David, but the menorah.

And that is likely how it happened. The coin, which was how the ancients of the time advertised their king or ruler, shaping their idol image, was used to shape the menorah. Other nations could put an image of the deity/ruler on their coins. But Jews would not. Their stamp was the stamp of light, the light of liberty.

When the Romans took the sacred things from Herod's Temple, they purposefully marked the Arch of Titus with this image of liberty and light, the Menorah, to show that the Jews had been conquered. If you note, the menorah was shaped like that found on the coin of the Hasmoneans:

26

God or Satan?

by peacefulpete in

the theme of my recent comment in another thread demonstrated how in some circles the 'word/logos' had become understood to be implied within ot texts that mention an angel or destroyer (in the case of ex 12).

the comment got no response so i'll repost it now as a springboard for a further observation:.

here's another example of the extreme personification of the logos/word from the wisdom of solomon (approx.

KalebOutWest

Jeffro:

...this view of the ‘logos’ is necessarily and inexorably through the lens of Greek influence.

I am referencing a theology that was developed before there was Greek empire. It did not exist when people wrote the verse found in Exodus 12:23 which speaks of the "Destroyer" (Hebrew HAMMASHIT) or developed the theology or the Oral Traditions prior to this.

The Torah, this particular narrative, and this theology which I am speaking of (which names God as one-and-the-same with the evil or destruction that God allowed) was created in Hebrew before the birth and rise of Alexander the Great. Thus what you are stating is not possible.

During the time this theology was being shaped there was no Greek Empire, there were only separate independent city-states like Athens and Sparta. The unified empire that spread the influence of Hellenism that you are speaking of did not exist yet. The terms "logo" and the Wisdom of Solomon were not even composed yet, nor was the Torah completed as we know it today. I was speaking of their connection to the theology, which is far more ancient than the Greek words in which they were translated.

I was speaking of 597 BCE and for the generation onward. You are talking about an "influence" that would not exist until Alexander the Great, around 322 BCE. The Hebrew Bible was finalized during the Persian Era. Alexander the Great would much later conquer the Persians. But he was not born yet. You have your eras backward. Saying that that the theology must be Greek because it was rendered in Greek is like saying the Hebrew Scriptures must be American because they are translated in English.

In fact, the Greek word does not mean the same thing the Hebrew word means. The Hebrew word MALAKH means "representation" or "representative" or "spokesman." LOGOS in Greek means "truth" or "rational" or "divine intelligence." The English word "logo" was shaped by the Hebrew usage, not the Greek. For instance, the "logo" for McDonald's is a representation of the product and company, i.e., the "Golden Arches." It is not "truth," or "divine." But the giant "M" is a "representation" and a "spokesman," like it is in Hebrew. Thus the Hebrew influenced and overshadowed the Greek usage in the etymological development for English and international usage (I worked for Madison Avenue in my early 20s, so I had to learn this in my Graphic Design studies).

There was not a Greek empire to shape the word "Destroyer" or influence the theology of the Jews while in Babylonian Exile let alone a Hebrew text. The theology came first as did the Oral Traditions. The dating of history, etymology, and the rise and fall of empires do not fit your claims