sleepy

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Posts by sleepy

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  50

  Ray Franz has anyone read Crisi of Conscience?

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am interested in ray franz.

  can anybody comment on him?

  i've heard rumors, but partial ones from jw's.

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  sleepy

  Yes I've read it.

  The account seams pretty reasonable , he presents documents and names names.

  The society has never denied any of his claimes.

  This I feal speaks for itself.
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  55

  Could man have free will if God cansee the future?

  by sleepy in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  some witness theological beliefs are, man has free will, god can see the future.. i used to wonder how this could work.for if god could see you were going to do something then you must do it, otherwise god is wrong, so therefore you had no choice.. take judas for example.jesus is believed to have known he would be betrayed by him.in fact it is suppossed to have been prophesied in psalms that someone close to him would do so.. if god could see that judas would kill jesus then once this predicion was made judas had no choice no free will to choose not to.so either god can't really see the furture and can just make predictions or man has no free will.if when god looks into the future this causes an event to happen , its gods fault if he see something bad happening , as if he didn't look it would not have been set in stone.. if it is predictions that god makes (not acktual knowledge of what will happen)then what are these based on?.

  knowledge of the human brain and how it works?if so, then man actions are purly based on mechanisms within the brain that are so rigid that you with enought knowledge can know them thousands of years before.so if mans sins it not his fault , theres nothing he can do about it , he has no free will.so god is not just in punishing him.. whichever way it does not work out as fair or logical that a god could see the future and for man to have free will..

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  sleepy

  Some witness theological beliefs are, man has free will, God can see the future.

  I used to wonder how this could work.For if God could see you were going to do something then you must do it, otherwise god is wrong, so therefore you had no choice.

  Take Judas for example.Jesus is believed to have known he would be betrayed by him.In fact it is suppossed to have been prophesied in Psalms that someone close to him would do so.

  If God could see that Judas would kill Jesus then once this predicion was made Judas had no choice no free will to choose not to.So either god can't really see the furture and can just make predictions or man has no free will.If when God looks into the future this causes an event to happen , its gods fault if he see something bad happening , as if he didn't look it would not have been set in stone.

  If it is predictions that God makes (not acktual knowledge of what will happen)then what are these based on?

  Knowledge of the human brain and how it works?If so, then man actions are purly based on mechanisms within the brain that are so rigid that you with enought knowledge can know them thousands of years before.So if mans sins it not his fault , theres nothing he can do about it , he has no free will.So God is not just in punishing him.

  Whichever way it does not work out as fair or logical that a God could see the future and for man to have free will.
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  18

  Invent some problems for JW's

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  lets invent some problem for jw's to see how far you can take their rules.

  1.siamese twins get baptised.one now get disfellowshipped for apostacy.the witness one ,get counceled by the elders for mixing with apostates.eventualy gets disfellowshipped for too much assosiation with apostate other half.

  2.man has sex change, but then becomes witness.is he a brother or a sister?

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  sleepy

  Lets invent some problem for JW's to see how far you can take their rules.

  1.Siamese twins get baptised.One now get disfellowshipped for apostacy.The witness one ,get counceled by the elders for mixing with apostates.Eventualy gets disfellowshipped for too much assosiation with apostate other half.

  2.Man has sex change, but then becomes witness.Is he a brother or a sister?

  3.Chimpanzee gets taught english and wants bible study , can he now get baptised?

  Edited by - sleepy on 20 July 2002 14:4:10
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  6

  7Mon5keys an/d ?typewriteeers an@d stufGf

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have often heard the claim that if you sit a load of monkeys down with a load of type writers they would evntualy write the entire works of shakespeare.the idea being that given enought time anything can happen.this is usually used in support of evolution.

  but this aurgument just as well fits creation.if given enought time anything can happen then being created by a god and it looking like evolution is one of them!

  so is it the case that given enought time anything can happen?

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  sleepy

  Expat,

  Thats just a word problem.Unless its just my useage of the terms.But all means the whole amount or extent of.So an all powerful god has maximum use of power, but the power is limited by what amount of power there can actually be.

  A bit like the idea non infinate universe.You could always imagine a bigger one in your head, but in reality the universe is bound by whatever laws its under.

  If there was a God(big ?) why should his limits have anything to do with measures we put on things.

  There was a time when people thought speed was infinate , you could forever go faster.For there to be a limit seamed strange.But indeed it seems there is a limit.

  What turns out to be true or possible doen't have to fit in with the way we think or describe things.

  ?By tHe5 wa#y is the Chiiiimp called <Gary>?
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  6

  7Mon5keys an/d ?typewriteeers an@d stufGf

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have often heard the claim that if you sit a load of monkeys down with a load of type writers they would evntualy write the entire works of shakespeare.the idea being that given enought time anything can happen.this is usually used in support of evolution.

  but this aurgument just as well fits creation.if given enought time anything can happen then being created by a god and it looking like evolution is one of them!

  so is it the case that given enought time anything can happen?

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  sleepy

  I know the monkey thing is not ment to be taken literaly.

  "These objections are irrelevant"

  No the're not.

  The point is that the monkey example does highligth deficientcies in the concept that given enought time anything will happen .It wont.You need the right mechanism ,if it doesn't exist then it doesn't matter how long you've got nothing will happen or a least not the result you are hopping for.

  Fran6cois wa9s not h?aarmed in the making of+ this posyDt.

  Sleepy the Monkey.
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  6

  7Mon5keys an/d ?typewriteeers an@d stufGf

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have often heard the claim that if you sit a load of monkeys down with a load of type writers they would evntualy write the entire works of shakespeare.the idea being that given enought time anything can happen.this is usually used in support of evolution.

  but this aurgument just as well fits creation.if given enought time anything can happen then being created by a god and it looking like evolution is one of them!

  so is it the case that given enought time anything can happen?

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  sleepy

  I have often heard the claim that if you sit a load of monkeys down with a load of type writers they would evntualy write the entire works of shakespeare.The idea being that given enought time anything can happen.This is usually used in support of evolution.

  But this aurgument just as well fits creation.If given enought time anything can happen then being created by a God and it looking like evolution is one of them!

  So is it the case that given enought time anything can happen?

  Well no.Or maybe .You see what do we mean by anything?Well most people might think that anything you can think of.But things you can think of are only conceptual, they exist in your brain and not necessraily as real things that could happen.People used to say to me "God can do anything" but a god could if all powerful only do what is possible not conceptual.So given enought time or power only things that can happen , can happen.Since we don't fully know what can or can't happen , then having enought time is irrelevant if the thing cant actually happen.

  Beside this sitting down monkeys at type writters would never work for a number of reasons.They would die first for a start, and could you get them type for long enought without them running off and humping each other?Where does the paper come from, the ink.What happens when the typewriters break.Where does all the waste go?

  So you actually nead the right mechanism to get the desired result , some mechanisms will never work no matter how long you give it.

  So in order to get the desired results from a seamingly random situation you nead a setup that can indeed produce those results without intivention, other wise the result is not random.

  With evolution you have some of those factors.A random choise of DNA which in turn can be self regulating in further choices of DNA.But does the fact that you can get some pretty complex results over a long time just messing with DNA prove that this can , and did prouduce the human brain and consciousness.

  To know the answer we would have to know what these things are exactlly and how they work.Without knowing how they work how can we say how they were made?

  It may indeed be the case that they were made this way.But we do not know the limits of natural selection neither do we know exactally what it is capable of.We don't know that the system is capable of producing the "desired" result.Does it like the monkey need help in achieving its "goal"?

  So things that seam complex can indeed be produced in random situations given enought time and the right mechanism.But what things a random situation is capable of producing are dermined by the mechanism used and the limits of it.What things actually are producable are not down to the human mind but the nature of the universe.

  By the way no monkeys were harmend in the making of this post.

  Edited by - sleepy on 20 July 2002 10:32:20
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  14

  Remember the food tokens at conventions!!

  by haujobbz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  they were the good old days, in the uk about 10 years ago were able to purchase food tokens to get our lovely hot food supplied at conventions i used to really look forward conventions then,then all of a sudden voila no hot food supplied at assemblys no more i was "gutted" i really missed the currys and sunday veg mmmmmmmmm.

  but why did they stop doing it, i think this really upset most having to bring your own grub.they do give free water at them now though

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  sleepy

  I remmeber that the pioneers had free tokens for food.While poor families with lots of kids would have to by their own or bring sandwiches.

  Its good that the society got their priorities right.I wonder if the governing body ever gave their own tokens to someone needy and made sandwiches for themselves?I think not.
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  10

  Was it the bible or Jehovahs witnesses?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  was it the bible you started to doubt or jehovahs witnesses ?.

  with me it was the bible which i could not reconcile with common sense , obviously from that i could see jw' s were certainly wrong.but many here still believe the bible.. why?if you can't trust a group of men who are alive today in brooklyn how can you trust people who are long dead , and have no chance of speaking to?.

  it worries me that i believed in jehovahs witnesses.it worries me more that so many feel they broke free from brainwashing etc only to still believe the bible.. jehovahs witnesses are flawed because they try to follow the bible which in turn is a flawed book.

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  sleepy

  Was it the bible you started to doubt or Jehovahs witnesses ?

  With me it was the bible which I could not reconcile with common sense , obviously from that I could see JW' s were certainly wrong.But many here still believe the bible.

  Why?If you can't trust a group of men who are alive today in Brooklyn how can you trust people who are long dead , and have no chance of speaking to?

  It worries me that i believed in Jehovahs witnesses.It worries me more that so many feel they broke free from brainwashing etc only to still believe the Bible.

  Jehovahs witnesses are flawed because they try to follow the bible which in turn is a flawed book.
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  18

  Do Jws really enjoy being Jws?

  by haujobbz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i say this because half the witnesses i knew never seemed to be into answering at meetings,preaching the good news,being united with others.you see when i got baptised which was about 2 years ago i was really into answering at meetings,preaching etc and guess what people in the hall thought there was something wrong with me,they would say things like youll get used to it, you wont be happy much longer,this made confused because i thought these people were really into what they did with there hearts.i was obviously wrong,i then started to wonder does going to meetings,preaching,etc really show your a true christian you know serving god with a whole heart,all these organised rules didnt really matter i thought,you see if these people had do bible research,arrange the preaching themselves do you think they would do it.i now believe that serving god through organisations doesnt really make you closer to god i think serving god on your own really shows ones heart condition and how much you love god.

  p.s.

  im not a" jw no more" and still working out religion etc, i do swear and lie now though lol

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  sleepy

  There were two things I did like as a JW.

  One was the thought we were learning something special.

  The second was you could make a lot of friends and go to lots of places and meet people.

  Now I can count my friends on one hand , actually just a couple of fingers.
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  16

  How do the locals speak near you?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in britian every city has its own accent and local words that people use.. if you worked a council estate in cardiff you were joe-va's witnesses.. a reply on the ministry could be "you joe-vah's witnesses is it?.

  i remmember working in shefield and people would call each other "ducky".

  what were witnesses called where you live?

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  sleepy

  In Britian every city has its own accent and local words that people use.

  If you worked a council estate in Cardiff you were Joe-va's witnesses.

  A reply on the ministry could be "You Joe-vah's witnesses is it?

  I remmember working in Shefield and people would call each other "ducky"

  What were witnesses called where you live?