Really appreciate your ability to empathize. Good of you to recognize how naive a JW can be in a "worldly" setting.
It may be eye opening for him to find that you can find a real friend who is not a JW.
zophar
JoinedPosts by zophar
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I'm still on my JWN holidays but had to pop back to share this experience.
by nicolaou ini'm a postman with the royal mail and was assigned to train a new starter yesterday.
my line manager introduces me to 'dave', within seconds my jw radar was on maximum!
in his mid to late 30's, politely spoken and with that haircut - i just knew it.. the post he'd applied for was saturdays only, he said he did a lot of volunteer work.
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How Many Elders And Ministerial Servants Are There In Your Congregation?
by Village Idiot ini'm curious to see how much manpower a little congregation - a hundred?
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zophar
There are 3 elders and 6 MS in the local congregation. -
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28 years
by PLAYGROUND inearlier i posted about my loveless marriage.
i was baptized at a very young age, and during that time period i was having sex.yes i made a dedication knowing i was still practicing fornication.
i had raging hormones since my youth.
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zophar
It is NOT Jehovah's Witnesses who forgive sin, it is God.
Instead of talking to elders about this, talk to Jehovah about it. He is the only one who really has authority over you. If there is a God and he is really a God of Love then he understands your situation and the torture you are going through.
You sound like a person who still believes in God so why don't you entrust yourself to his mercy and leave the rest alone. Your religion only has authority over you if you let it.
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The Kingdom Hall
by TheLiberator ini know i have mentioned this on other posts.
as a born-in, i was obsessed with the watchtower.
it was god's organization.
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zophar
Pete...
What a balanced reply. Well thought out and reasoned.
There are so many things we could get involved with that are far worse than a religious cult. What about the Manson Cult? What about the bloodguilt of the Nazi's etc. It doesn't mean that the religion didn't do us harm but we can stop that harm in time.
Our motives while we were JW's were pure for most of us and we had a real desire to help others and to worship God. There are probably about the same number of Christians among JW's as many other religions.
How right you are about the black and white thinking. We need to stop it!
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The real reason so many witnesses end up here....
by stuckinarut2 inwhy do so many witnesses end up coming to forums like this?.
no doubt it is because of the fact that the society disallows any form of sincere questioning of teachings or doctrines or history etc.... if there was open discussion allowed - free of repercussions and punishment, then no one would feel stifled.
if genuine concerns could be raised, then no one would feel smothered or unable to share thoughts... then in turn many would not leave.... but due to the high control, authoritarian culture the society has created, many feel trapped, and end up searching outside of official channels...and leaving the society.....
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zophar
Good post.
I was thinking how restrictive the Catholic Church doctrine is. No birth control, no divorce etc. and yet it doesn't appear to affect people at all. Why? The Church doesn't try to enforce every rule and make people conform or get DF or excommunicated. So you can go to Church, worship, fellowship even if you don't agree with everything.
The same principle does not apply to JW. It seems their mission is not only to set guidelines or rules they think are right, but they have to enforce those upon those who disagree. That stifles freedom of thought and action and drives people away.
JW's who seem to do best would be the ones who "go to Church" at the Kingdom Hall. Then they go home and lead the life the feel called or compelled to lead.
They don't give JW's control of their every movement. Unfortunately, because it is a high control group demanding ENFORCEMENT, these people often find themselves at odds with the elders simply for living their own lives and making their own decisions.
Wonder why JW's even have a conscience if it is so unnecessary??
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zophar
Why isn't Bernie winning the minority vote if he is just for free stuff?
What an interesting mix of people the reporter decided to interview. I wonder, is there ANYONE who deserves assistance?
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Why Me?
by Grey Goose init the question that i have found myself constantly asking myself the past few months.
out of all the jws i interact with, why did it have to be me that woke up from this mess?.
i am relieved that i have woken up to the bullshit, but a side of me misses that fuzzy feeling of being a 100% believer.
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zophar
I'm sure that children who learn there is no Santa Claus or tooth fairy go through some trauma too. They seem to be able to adjust quickly to reality though.
Unfortunately, many of us were so sure we had all the answers for 30, 40, 50 years or more before reality shattered our perception. I guess I can only say, I'm glad I'm not in my 60's still waiting for Santa Claus.
Who knows what will shape my thinking in the future, but I doubt very seriously it will involve a cult or any absolute black and white thinking process. For that I am grateful.
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Actions speak louder than words
by Sabin ingday to you all.
i have had a thought i would like to share with you.
i cannot remember who it was, but i believe it has been mentioned (maybe paul grundy) that if you wish to null & void your baptism because you were so young when it took place that the wtbts will not allow it if you have been participating in the believes & practises of the religion when you were older & able to make a decision of your own free will.
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zophar
Ah, if life were really just that black and white, right or wrong!
Example, I disapprove of excessive violence against young black men by Police authorities in the US when it happens. A good example of this for me is the Eric Garner case where a black man died for a very minor offense. However, I don't agree with Al Sharpton who I believe exaggerates at best and actually lies about white on black crime. So I go to Washington DC to march in support of Black Lives Matter, does that mean I'm approving of everything they stand for? If I were to vote for a presidential candidate, do I have to agree with every one of his policy positions? Finally, does every Catholic attending Mass agree with every doctrine of the Catholic Church?
I just don't think that life is that black and white, there are shades of gray and each person has to make his or her own decision about these things.
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Gay ex-Bethelite
by Chip Williamson injust now finding this web site and have enjoyed reading the comments.
i've never written down my story and it could be a jerry springer episode but here goes.
i was raised as a jehovah's witness from as early as i can remember.
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zophar
I knew a Sister who married a gay man. She did not know he was gay at the time of their marriage but found out on her wedding night. She could never accept it and eventually this lovely person committed suicide. No doubt there were many emotional issues but she confided in her friend what she knew about her husband and how it was affecting her. She seemed to try her best to be a good wife, and of course, divorce seemed out of the question for her. I guess she endured as long as she could.
Her husband never remarried. I've never been able to view him the same way since.
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Are Jehovah's Witnesses Saved by Grace...Undeserved Kindness?
by zophar inthere was a time that one could, if they dug deep enough, come up with the answer that jw’s teach that one is “saved” by grace or the nwt preferred “undeserved kindness.” for instance, in the reasoning book p. 360 under the heading “salvation” there is a sub-heading under the section, “if someone says”: ‘are you saved?’ here is what it says you could say if someone asks, “are you saved?’ you might reply: ‘so far, i am.’…….
the conclusion being, you are saved right now.
and yes, you need to remain faithful, but you are right now in a saved state.
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zophar
There was a time that one could, if they dug deep enough, come up with the answer that JW’s teach that one is “Saved” by grace or the NWT preferred “undeserved kindness.” For instance, in the Reasoning Book p. 360 under the heading “Salvation” there is a sub-heading under the section, “If someone says”: ‘Are you saved?’ Here is what it says you could say if someone asks, “Are You Saved?’ You might reply: ‘So far, I am.’…….
The conclusion being, you are saved right now. And yes, you need to remain faithful, but you are right now in a saved state. I remember giving the talk, “Are You Marked For Survival?” and I would ask the audience, “Do you think you are saved?” Interestingly, almost no one would raise their hands. The ones who DID raise their hands were usually the more studious witnesses. Even though the Reasoning book clears says, “so far, I am.” The majority just couldn’t bring themselves to acknowledge that. Why do you think that is? Do Jehovah’s Witnesses really believe that Jesus paid the price of sin and that they can be saved or declared righteous by God?
I was so happy to be able to show that, yes Jehovah’s Witnesses teach you are saved. I would use three lines of reasoning to come to that conclusion.
1.) The parable of the sheep and goats
2.) The “mark” one receives in the book of Ezekiel
3.) Your name is written in the book of life.
Now of course that is all falling apart. First came the adjustment on the sheep and goats parable. This has been extensively commented on elsewhere on this board, and thank you for that. But briefly, JW’s used to teach that one is judged as a “sheep” right now, on this side of the Great Tribulation. Now you are not marked as a sheep just yet. No, you must await the time when Jesus returns to render judgment and he will determine if you are to be saved. So…..on that one point, you are not saved yet. You have to keep working for your salvation! They use the Scripture at Philippians 2:12, “keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” So, Point 1 from above, Jesus ransom sacrifice did not save you, at least not yet.
Secondly, “the mark” of Ezekiel 9:4. “Jehovah said to him: “Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the city.”
The Public Talk: “Are You Marked for Survival?” Outline number 34 is all about that “Mark” and how and when you get this mark of survival. In that outline it states: “The mark is evidence that one is dedicated, baptized Witness of God has a Christlike personality.” So the thinking was, once dedication is made to God, you put on the “new personality,” and get baptized……NOW you are saved. But, NOPE, hold on a minute, we got that one wrong. You do not get the Mark on this side of the Great Tribulation. The WT 6-15-16 says, “The great crowd will receive their mark when they are judged as sheep during the great tribulation.” So, on Point 2, you are not saved by grace yet, not until the start of the Great Tribulation.
So, what about Point 3? I also used to give Public Talk number 55: “What Kind of Name Are You Making With God? The last subheading is: Is Your Name In the Scroll of Life?
The outline states: “From time of Abel, founding of world of mankind, Jehovah has been writing names in “the scroll of life” (Re 17:8) It refers back to Insight Book Vol 2 p 468. The outline goes on to state: “we can get our names inscribed in that book even now.” Of course, the outline reminds us that the name is not indelibly inscribed yet. It can be removed at any time.
Now, I haven’t seen any changes to this name in the book of life teaching yet. But, is that the only reference we can use to show that, right now one is saved by grace or undeserved kindness?
How long will it be before the GB reviews this teaching? Is it this persistent thinking that you have to earn it, have to keep up that meeting attendance, field service, donations etc. if you want to be saved? It would seem so. In other words, when it comes to the matter of “Salvation” Jesus death did not put me in a saved condition with God. I have to somehow wait and see. And, make sure you keep working in the meantime to guarantee your salvation. How is this saved by “undeserved kindness” or ”grace” and not a matter of working for your salvation and earning it based on your works? I guess time will tell what the future “light” will reveal on the matter.
Of course, I realize this is not a big deal to those of you who are not Bible believers or those who do not identify themselves as Christian. This post is addressed primarily to those who still have a semblance of faith and are hoping for changes to JW doctrine that aligns more with what your conscience tells you is right. Things such as judicial actions etc.
At least some food for thought.