Posts by Thirdson

14

When and Where D'fed or such....

by StifflersErSlayersBrother in

jw
friends

a while back there was a post on when/where baptised... i thought i'd do the complete opposite :).

as for me.... sometime in the near future maybe

Thirdson

Never DF'd or DA'd. I choose self-imposed, permanent exile...sort of. Moved away from the area where I was well known. Associated with a new congregation for a year or so a moved again, not far but far enough. No one came looking so I must be presumed dead. Deceased April, 1997.

Things I could have since got DF'd for:

Having girlfriend's (now wife) car parked in my garage overnight.

I won't mention the "uncleaness" and "loose conduct" which is subject to the length of "momentary".

Apostacy, writing a critical letter to the HIS at the London, Bethel. Posting numerous criticisms of GB and WTS on discussion boards. Associating with (on line and in person) known apostates and DF's persons.

Things I could get DA'd for.

Working as a volunteer for a church based program of feeding the homeless.

Getting married in a non-JW church, actually a Cathedral, having the service conducted by a woman priest.

Celebrating birthday -- own, wife's, sons and other friends and relatives. Putting up Christmas tree, Christmas lights, sending Christmas cards. Attending Christmas eve church service and singing carrols. Playing Bing Crosby in my car at Christmas. Eating turkey on Thanksgiving after giving thanks.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

76

I Said Goodbye

by Farkel in

jw
friends

my father was rushed by ambulance from his rest home to st. marks hospital in salt lake city, utah friday, but i only just heard about it.

i received a call from the floor nurse and she told me he is not expected to live.

his lungs are filled fill up with fluid and are continuing to fill u with more fluid: he has pneumonia.

Thirdson

Doug,

I think everyone has said many of the things I wanted to say. Being able to say goodbye is a good thing at this most difficult time. My heart goes out to you and your mum.

Sincerely,

Simon

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

4

Secret Bethel Post Big-A Work Instructions

by Thirdson in

jw
friends

recently, i received information about the top secret post-armageddon plans the society has in place.

you may have heard rumors about these plans before and what work is being formulated for each congregation.

this information comes from a "heavy" uncle of mine, a 7th generation witness himself, and grandson of the designer of the society's aborted attempt to produce a portable cinematic projection system for the door-to-door ministry in the 1930's.

Thirdson

Recently, I received information about the top secret post-armageddon plans the society has in place. You may have heard rumors about these plans before and what work is being formulated for each congregation. This information comes from a "heavy" uncle of mine, a 7th generation Witness himself, and grandson of the designer of the society's aborted attempt to produce a portable cinematic projection system for the door-to-door ministry in the 1930's.

Letter # 238 Dated April 1, 1971

To the Rapid City, SD, Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses

Dear Brothers,

Your work assignment for the next 250 years is to clean up the defaced mountain in your locality, the former Mount Rushmore. This mountain, renamed Mountain of the Chosen, is to be restructured and the society's art department has designed the facing with appropriate "Glorious" ones.

We trust that you will carry out this assignment diligently and we look forward to viewing the results in the coming centuries.

Your brothers,

Watchtower

Enclosure: Anticipated scheme to be followed

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

2

Death of a Pioneer

by Thirdson in

jw
friends

by pioneer i mean a true pioneer not someone who flogs books for 60 odd hours a month for a publishing company.

i'm referring to a true pioneer, dr. christaan barnard, who died today.

he performed the worlds first successful human heart transplant in 1967. he died today aged 78.. it is worth mentioning again because dr. barnard gets scant coverage by the wt (i dont have any awakes from the 60s and 70s so if anyone can add any more id be grateful.

Thirdson

By pioneer I mean a true pioneer not someone who flogs books for 60 odd hours a month for a publishing company. I'm referring to a true pioneer, Dr. Christaan Barnard, who died today. He performed the world’s first successful human heart transplant in 1967. He died today aged 78.

It is worth mentioning again because Dr. Barnard gets scant coverage by the WT (I don’t’ have any Awakes from the 60’s and 70’s so if anyone can add any more I’d be grateful.) and when he is mentioned it is negative. Far from being a forward looking or an insightful organization the WTS is blind to possibilities and quick to denounce pioneering attempts at extending human health and lives.

Thirty four years ago the Watchtower responded to a question about accepting organs for transplant no doubt caused by the public interest in transplant surgery.

The Watchtower stated:

When men of science conclude that this normal process (normal immune system healing of disease) will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. Watchtower November 15, 1967 Page 702

The same article also comments that the need for such life-saving cannibalistic operations won’t be needed much longer because of the strong evidence that the “new order” is close at hand. In other words, people like Dr. Barnard should give up as they won’t be needed much longer.

A further attack on heart transplants was made in 1971 with a ridiculous article about the figurative heart of the Bible and how this was also the organ in your chest. Since the nerve connecting the brain and heart is severed during transplant surgery the Watchtower said this:

this cannot be ruled out as one of several factors causing the serious mental aberrations and disorientation that doctors report are observed in heart-transplant patients…One thing is sure, in losing their own hearts, they have had taken away from them the capacities of “heart” built up in them over the years and which contributed to making them who they were as to personality. Watchtower March 1, 1971 P135

In other words, Dr Barnard and his cohorts stole these patients’ hearts and all the good that they had instilled in them.

In 1975 the Watchtower was still stating that post-operative heart-transplant recipients experience higher-than-average psychiatric problems adding that kidney-transplant patients also have problems. It is still bad medicine.

The end did not come quite so soon and by 1980, five years after the decisive year of 1975 the Watchtower took a new view on organ transplants. While some Christians were said to feel that transplants are cannibalistic (the ones who read the Watchtower from the 1960’s) it was now a matter of conscience. (See Watchtower March 15, 1980 Page 31) By 1989 enough Witnesses had changed their minds about transplant surgery that the Awake could favorably report that Witness patients who received kidney transplants without blood transfusions had survival rates as high as those of patients who received blood. Thank you Dr. Barnard? Well I’m sure the patients thank Dr. Barnard and other surgeons pioneering transplant surgery for extending their lives despite the nearness of the “new order” when doctors won’t be needed.

Other than a quote from the jogging surgeon “Chris Barnard” (g80 12/22 p7) the only other mention of him is an article about the troubled 1960’s. He gets a footnote mention amongst disasters, riots and deaths in the article The 1960’s A Period of Turbulent Protest.

I wonder how many people have now had heart transplants. In 34 years this headline news procedure has become common place (still a major operation) and gets no one’s attention. The fact that such major transplants were attempted led to break-throughs in tissue rejection drugs and other types of transplant surgery. Dr. Barnard himself worked on other cardiac procedures, designed replacement heart valves and wrote extensively. Thank goodness some people have the foresight and drive to help people now at this time and are prepared to work for it. Vague promises of the future are not worth much if you have to die to realize them. Don’t hold your breath for the Watchtower’s new doctor-less order. We still need pioneers whose work continues to benefit 100’s of JWs.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

Edited for missing year in quote and changed typo "then" to "the".
Being the proud and immodest apostate that I am I had to look for my post to see how many times it has been read.

12

The Real origin of the 1914 Doctrine

by barry in

jw
friends

i am a baptised seventh day adventist and ive had studies for about 6mths with a very nice jw lady.

ive learnt about the wt teachings and attended the kh and the memorial.

n there are some similarities with the adventist and jw teachings such as baptism by imersion, the state of the dead,some adventists dont vote and some adventists beleive with the wt society in the arian doctrine that jesus is a created being and the holy spirit is a force but the vast majority beleive the trinity doctrine.

Thirdson

Hi Barry,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the start of the Adventist movement. I've learnt a great deal in the past 5 years about the early history of the JW religion.

My view is that these new unorthodox religions not only attracted flaky ideas about Biblical numerology and prophecy but also delved in to the pseudo-science popular in the late Victorian age. The Watchtower society has a history of promoting quack medical devices, promoting phrenology, promoting pyramidology denouncing real science (vaccinations etc), crusading against aluminum, and setting end-dates for the world.

Most of these things have gone now, quietly hidden or regarded as “old-light”. However, despite all the junk discarded on way, the idea about 1914 (one date out of numerous speculations) and the ban on blood transfusions remain. Most JWs don’t see these in the context of the bizarre former teachings and the modern explanation, however contrived, is believed. For the WTS, they have to retain these because the 1914 doctrine is crucial to the leadership’s position and “blood” would cause too many legal problems should they admit to their mistake.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

6

Telephone "witnessing"

by NikL in

jw
friends

the following presentations have been making the rounds at the local hall and on dub e mail.

i thought i might post them for your edification.. if you get a call and someone starts giving you one these spiels you can have some good answers ready perhaps.. anyway,.

here goes.... telephone witnessing.

Thirdson

I chewed out a telemarketer from MNBA this evening for calling after I requested not be called. I'm ready.

TELEPHONE WITNESSING

Caller: Hello, my name is sister Knowitall. I'm a volunteer Bible student and the…

Me: Is that like a volunteer firefighter?

Caller: Huh?

Me: A volunteer firefighter? You know, not a professional but does an OK job?

Caller: No I’m a Bible student and a volunteer.

Me: Oh, I’m a volunteer TV watcher

Caller: Well......the reason I called you today is because I'm unable to come and see you personally.

Me: I’m sorry to hear you are not well.

Caller: Umm, I'm interested in getting your view on whether a genuinely happy life is possible. What do you think?

Me: I am very happy so I think a happy life is possible. Are you happy?

Caller: Er yes, er because the Bible tells us it is at Psalms 1:1, 2. (reads it) You can see the importance of studying the Bible so I would like to offer you a free home Bible study. There is no charge and it takes only 15 minutes a week for 16 weeks

Me: No thanks, usually there is no charge for free things, besides I can study the Bible for 15 hours a week and it is still free. Have I been pre-approved for this?

Caller: No, well yes, everyone is approved for this. I would be glad to bring the brochure we use to your home.

Me: A brochure? Is this to sell me more studies?

Caller: No, this brochure is what we study.

Me: I thought you offered a study of the Bible?

Caller: It is, but we use a brochure as well.

Me: I already have a study system of my own and my own beliefs,

Caller: No doubt you do. But regardless of our religion we are affected by many of the same problems..

Me: Like annoying telemarketers?

Caller: Huh? I’m not selling anything.

Me: But you’re annoying.

Caller: WELL WE believe we have an urgent and life saving work

Me: So your religion can save me?

Caller: Yes,

Me: I’m already saved and I’m going to live in heaven.

Caller: We believe that everyone will be resurrected to live on Earth.

Me: That doesn’t sound as good as my current religion. So it’s not very tempting. Do you offer a low introductory penitence rate.

Caller: I’m sorry you seem to be wasting my time.

Me: Your time, what about my time? Can I talk to your supervisor?

Caller: Why?

Me: So I can be removed from your list.

Caller: Uhmmm, I don’t have a supervisor, I’ll report that you don’t want to be called on. Bye

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

4

Making Jesus Say More than he Said.

by Thirdson in

jw
friends

farkel wrote an excellent piece (as always) on matthew 25 and the wts version of what jesus meant as if jesus meant something he didnt say.

this is a similar subject and takes a piece from the greatest man book which for some reason i found myself flicking through again.

(i previously posted a short piece on the prodigal son) it is sad in a way, i kept this book thinking it may have some value as a commentary on the life of jesus but on rereading sections of it i feel inclined to toss it away.. so many times the book interjects its interpretation of what jesus meant and in chapter 63 there is a contradiction in the line of reasoning.

Thirdson

Farkel wrote an excellent piece (as always) on Matthew 25 and the WTS version of what Jesus meant as if Jesus meant something he didn’t say. This is a similar subject and takes a piece from the Greatest Man book which for some reason I found myself flicking through again. (I previously posted a short piece on the Prodigal Son) It is sad in a way, I kept this book thinking it may have some value as a commentary on the life of Jesus but on rereading sections of it I feel inclined to toss it away.

So many times the book interjects its interpretation of what Jesus meant and in chapter 63 there is a contradiction in the line of reasoning. In this chapter it covers the portion of the gospels (Luke 9:49,50 and Mark 9 38-50) where the disciples complain to Jesus that a certain man is expelling demons in Jesus’ name even though he is not one of the accompanying disciples. In response Jesus tells them to leave the man alone with the words “he that is not against us is for us.”

This sentiment recorded twice in the gospels goes against the WTS idea that “he that is not for us is against us and God.” To explain this the Greatest Man book says:

It was not necessary for this man to follow Jesus to be on his side. The Christian congregation had not been set up, so his not being part of the their group did not mean that he was of a separate congregation.

Jesus doesn’t exactly say that. He simply said “he that is not against is for us.” He made no mention of congregations nor added caveats on when this man should stop what he was doing and join this “congregation”. But to leave Jesus words at face value might cause problems to the WTS belief system of having to take sides, of which, only their side of full obedience to the WTS is the right side.

The second portion in this same chapter where the WTS puts its own slant on things is our beloved Matthew 18; you know, that bit about handling problems. If after failing to resolve the issue in person or with one or two witnesses, Jesus says “speak to the congregation.” The Greatest Man book says:

Jesus says, take the matter to “the congregation,” that is, to the responsible overseers of the congregation who can render a judicial decision.

Here lies the contradiction, if previously Jesus was talking about a man who wasn’t a member of the congregation of Christians because it didn’t exist why does he frame this answer about a congregation? Is it or is it not the Christian congregation? And where do the overseers come in? They did not exist at the time Jesus spoke these words. No one is going to argue over the precise meaning of the Greek word translated as “congregation” surely? Jesus meant what he said.

The WTS can’t accept Jesus simple instructions. Jesus didn’t say take it to the overseers, who will form a committee of three and judge the person and then enforce public humiliation. Even if the matter is unresolved Jesus said, “let him be to you just as a man of the nations.” He didn’t say, “let him be to the congregation just as a man of the nations.”

I suppose, if you create a religion full of rules and regulations and an idea that everyone is against you, then you have to twist the Bible to make it fit your doctrines. If you believe that you are appointed to dish out the “meat in due season” you can flavor it anyway you like. Besides, if you believe the Greek scriptures were written for, and about, just your own elite group you can add to it anyway you like.

I haven’t thrown the book out, yet. I've put it on the very top shelf out of sight. I can’t be reading that anymore. It seems to have no redeeming value and is just part of the collection (very small) of books saved as a shaming reminder of my former belief system.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

Edited for missing slashes

17

risk taking

by joelbear in

jw
friends

well, i'm getting closer and closer to turning my life upside down and breaking away from my 43 years of conservative living.

any risk experiences out there?.

the risk i want to take is leaving banking, living a much more bohemiam life, maybe work as a waiter or bartender or something, go to school, travel, work on my furniture art, write, read, live.. aaaack.

Thirdson

Joel,

Sometimes you've just got to take the risk because if you don't you'll be old, regretting the missed opportunities.

Like some here, I made the decision to up sticks and try something different. It wasn't greatly adventurous but moving countries and culture is not always easy. We sold up, house, furniture and lots of other belongings when I accepted a job in the US. Our decision (based on my contract) was "why not try it for two years and enjoy doing something different". My then-wife enjoyed it so much she left me as well...good for her.

As for me, I got my green card, bought a house, and found someone to love.

If we'd have stayed put my wife would still likely have left me. And I'd be doubly miserable regretting missed opportunities.

There are plenty of things I've skipped or avoided. Growing up a JW doesn't help one bit. It is time for trying new things. You only live once, you might as well enjoy it.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

174

get a life -- 10 facts

by joelbear in

jw
friends

i thought it would be interesting for people to just post a few things about themselves so we can get to know each other just a bit.. try posting 10 facts about your life.. joel.

1. i was born and raised in south georgia.. 2. my favorite subject in school was math.. 3. i was in the fulltime service (bethel and pioneer) for 4 years.. 4. my favorite color is blue.. 5. mitch and i have been together over 12 years.. 6. we live in a suburb of atlanta georgia.. 7. we love to eat out and have friends over for dinner and board games.. 8. the only sport i was ever any good at is tennis.. 9. my favorite tv show of all time is the simpsons.. 10. we are both naturists and wish we could lay on the beach naked every day.

Thirdson

Ten known and lesser known facts

1. I was born in the UK, have 4 brothers and one sister, all raised as JWs, only two remain in.
2. I married last year (2nd time around) the most wonderful person who I met by chance and never dreamed I could ask her out…(she gave lots of less than subtle hints)
3. I have circumnavigated the globe & crossed the Atlantic 18 times.
4. Minnesota is home but I have been a resident of Australia as well.
5. I am a mechanical engineer but work in software development having retrained in the early 90’s.
6. I qualified for a FAI ‘A’ Certificate as a parachutist.
7. I like dark beers, red wine and scotch. My favorite dishes are curries and I cook my own.
8. I like female vocalists in the main but have a number of classic albums from the likes of Fleetwood Mac, the Beatles, the Beach boys and Queen but in my car you’ll also find classical recordings and opera.
9. I watch F1 racing on Sunday mornings (spring and summer) and Football (NFL style) on Sunday afternoons (fall and winter)
10. I have one son who I have joint custody of and a cat who has full custody of everyone else.

COMF is my pal ‘cause he shaved at least 13 years of my age recently – I’m 41.

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

15

how do i get a divorce when no one has.......

by jazz in

jw
friends

commited adultery my wife and i are headed in that direction what should i tell the brothers?

we are doing so because she just doesnt trust me anymore ?

Thirdson

Jazz,

In the weird logic of the WTS you can get divorced without repercussions as long as you don’t remarry or commit fornication. Instead sleep with your ex-wife after the divorce after which you will have committed fornication and thus are scriptually free to divorce and remarry. You might get DF’d but the number of partners doesn’t go up and your excuse would be sleeping with the person your weren’t scriptually separated from.

This is not serious solution just the bizarre way of getting around WTS rules and regulations. It all depends on what you really want from your marriage, life and JW association.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'