Longlivetherenegades

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Posts by Longlivetherenegades

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  13

  What would it like to see

  by JohnR1975 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what i would like to see and maybe will get there in about another ten years is being a jw is a rewarding thing that enriches your life.. just like other religions out there you may not know the entire truth and maybe not quite right many of the beliefs but to have to idea of a belief centres and stabilises you.. i would like jws to be able to celebrate birthdays and maybe even other holidays if they choose to and not be judged by those who choose not to.. i would like jws to be allowed to have different interpretations of scripture and everyone is happy to agree to disagree and be able to say to each other yes maybe that interpretation is nearer the truth.

  we just don’t know.. i would like new members of the gb to issue an apology for previous members getting so many things wrong.. they need to come out and say they were wrong about 1914 this date has no scriptural significance and the same is true of 1919. jws were not chosen in 1919 as the one and only true religion.. we just don’t know about so many things and it takes humility to admit we were wrong.. i would like to see even more lightening up on stupid restrictions like young people being allowed to have a varied friends and activities that are not with jws only..

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  Longlivetherenegades

  Loool @ joey jojo.

  They are really confused about who really do their thinking for them.
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

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  Longlivetherenegades

  Ray Franz wrote......

  As with the earlier quotations, I do not present this as a form of “proof” on a particular side of the issue of the validity of the trinity doctrine. The real proof rests with inspired Scripture not scholarly views. I present it because it is so often claimed that reluctance to accept what may be called orthodox or traditional trinitarianism is simply due to the person’s ignorance of the original languages of Scripture (Hebrew and, particularly, Greek), or due to having been indoctrinated with a biased, one-sided view of religious history, or due to the person’s understanding of certain texts being warped by a biased translation or interpretation of those texts. This Swiss Protestant theologian’s command of the Biblical languages, the depth of his knowledge of religious history, of the writings of the Ante-Nicene period and of following centuries are beyond question. The same is surely true of his knowledge of the various arguments, pro and con, regarding the Biblical texts that figure in the trinitarian dispute. Yet he makes evident that his acceptance of the “mystery” of the triune-God doctrine is as a product of theological thought, not because of belief that the teaching is itself actually present in Scripture. Even as other quotations coinciding with Brünner’s could be made, so could quotations contrary to his. I do not agree with all of his viewpoints. Verse-by-verse discussion of relevant Scriptures could be made and claims pro and con could be presented. That is not my purpose here. My intent here is not to argue against certain doctrines but against the dogmatism and judgmentalism that all too often accompanies them. What I have quoted is solely to demonstrate that there are highly respected scholars who, though in no sense supportive of Watch Tower claims, do not view the questioning of the Scriptural foundation of this doctrine in its traditional, orthodox form as the result of either ignorance or a cultlike mentality. Of greater seriousness to me, it illustrates why I cannot sympathize with those who take a judgmental attitude toward others because such ones’ view does not coincide with their own, with those on each side of the issue categorically denying that those on the other could possibly be Christian. I find it notable that, in contrast to the degree of moderation, caution and balance expressed by the sources already cited, often persons whose academic credentials are immensely inferior are among those most insistently dogmatic and judgmental on these same topics. I have no question that some of the arguments and reasonings they employ would be viewed as completely unworthy of consideration by those same scholarly sources. Whether we are learned or unlearned, I believe we must guard against dogmatism and judgmentalism, as indicative, not of wisdom and discernment, but of both smallness of mind and smallness of spirit and heart.
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  28

  Pre-Nicene christians and the trinity

  by joey jojo in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is just a quick summary that might be useful regarding the threads about the trinity currently on the board.. in 325 ce, the nicene council was called by constantine to settle schisms within the christian church.

  the argument about the nature of jesus in relation to god was one of the big problems that needed resolution.

  at first, constantine told the 2 main players, alexander and arius to sort it out between themselves, as he, constantine didnt see it as overly important.

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  Longlivetherenegades

  Ray Franz wrote......

  As with the earlier quotations, I do not present this as a form of “proof” on a particular side of the issue of the validity of the trinity doctrine. The real proof rests with inspired Scripture not scholarly views. I present it because it is so often claimed that reluctance to accept what may be called orthodox or traditional trinitarianism is simply due to the person’s ignorance of the original languages of Scripture (Hebrew and, particularly, Greek), or due to having been indoctrinated with a biased, one-sided view of religious history, or due to the person’s understanding of certain texts being warped by a biased translation or interpretation of those texts. This Swiss Protestant theologian’s command of the Biblical languages, the depth of his knowledge of religious history, of the writings of the Ante-Nicene period and of following centuries are beyond question. The same is surely true of his knowledge of the various arguments, pro and con, regarding the Biblical texts that figure in the trinitarian dispute. Yet he makes evident that his acceptance of the “mystery” of the triune-God doctrine is as a product of theological thought, not because of belief that the teaching is itself actually present in Scripture. Even as other quotations coinciding with Brünner’s could be made, so could quotations contrary to his. I do not agree with all of his viewpoints. Verse-by-verse discussion of relevant Scriptures could be made and claims pro and con could be presented. That is not my purpose here. My intent here is not to argue against certain doctrines but against the dogmatism and judgmentalism that all too often accompanies them. What I have quoted is solely to demonstrate that there are highly respected scholars who, though in no sense supportive of Watch Tower claims, do not view the questioning of the Scriptural foundation of this doctrine in its traditional, orthodox form as the result of either ignorance or a cultlike mentality. Of greater seriousness to me, it illustrates why I cannot sympathize with those who take a judgmental attitude toward others because such ones’ view does not coincide with their own, with those on each side of the issue categorically denying that those on the other could possibly be Christian. I find it notable that, in contrast to the degree of moderation, caution and balance expressed by the sources already cited, often persons whose academic credentials are immensely inferior are among those most insistently dogmatic and judgmental on these same topics. I have no question that some of the arguments and reasonings they employ would be viewed as completely unworthy of consideration by those same scholarly sources. Whether we are learned or unlearned, I believe we must guard against dogmatism and judgmentalism, as indicative, not of wisdom and discernment, but of both smallness of mind and smallness of spirit and heart.
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

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  Longlivetherenegades

  @MeanMrMustard

  I have really enjoyed your comment on this topic. I think people love chasing shadows than reality as captured below......

  These threads end up in these cycles because you are speaking right past each other. Both sides operate with radically different definitions of just about every word that matters on this topic. That is why both sides can quote the same scripture, the exact same one, and yet both sides will act like it soundly ended the debate.

  The main reason why many religious organization today are conflicted internally leading to calling defectors apostates and conflicted externally by calling other religious denomination not part of their own false christians
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

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  Longlivetherenegades

  Really appreciate the discussion here. All this unending back and forth over trinity in summary for me is men queuing behind fellow to advance their agenda and ideology which count for little in the final analysis.
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  16

  Ramapo project approved

  by dropoffyourkeylee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  news is that the ramapo project has been approved by authorities and can move forward..

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  Longlivetherenegades

  Thank you journeyman
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  3

  To whom should Christians pray to?

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it is funny how christians argue back and forth over the father, jesus christ and make it look as the father and the son are are loggerheads over supremacy.. even who to pray to between the father and jesus are means to create rivalry.

  it boils down to this, your essence of being a christian goes beyond those unending argument making jesus a rival of his father.

  psalms 65: 2. o hearer of prayer, to you people of all sorts* will come.. john 14: 13 also, whatever you ask in my name , i will do this, so that the father may be glorified in connection with the son.

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  Longlivetherenegades

  It is funny how Christians argue back and forth over the Father, Jesus Christ and make it look as the Father and the Son are are loggerheads over supremacy.

  Even who to pray to between the Father and Jesus are means to create rivalry. It boils down to this, your essence of being a Christian goes beyond those unending argument making Jesus a rival of his Father.
  

  Psalms 65: 2

  O Hearer of prayer, to you people of all sorts* will come.
  

  John 14: 13 Also, whatever YOU ASK in my NAME , I will do this, so that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. 14 If you ask anything in my name, I(Jesus not the Father)will do it.
  

  How will Jesus do what you ask, petition or request in his name if indeed Jesus cannot hear your prayers?

  Face reality stop chasing shadows. Jehovah and Jesus aren't at loggerheads regarding prayers.
  
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

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  Longlivetherenegades

  Those who say they are Christians or follow Christianity needs

  1. Father

  2. Jesus

  3. Holy spirit

  Your accepting trinity does not make you have more of the three itemized than the fellow who don't accept the trinity belief and vice versa. If otherwise give your concrete explanation.

  It is a shame after thousands of years of arguing trinity that refuses to die is still being a controversial discussion. There is more in being a Christian than trinity.
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  31

  Loss of a Jehovah’s Witness who I considered a friend

  by Fallen_Winter in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have known a jehovah’s witness for approximately 15 years and i have considered her a friend although i know that jehovah’s witnesses cannot have friends who are not jehovah’s witnesses.

  approximately two years ago, i was going through a very difficult time and i asked my friend if we could have bible study.

  she said yes and we have been studying the bible since.

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  Longlivetherenegades

  In simple terms, Jehovah's witnesses conduct Bible studies to make those persons eventually become Jehovah's witnesses. If you declare that you want Bible studies with Jehovah's witnesses from day 1 but added the clause that you will never join their membership. Such Bible study is dead on arrival. They won't come or waste their time studying the Bible with you.
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  31

  What made you look behind the jw curtain?

  by Touchofgrey in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was listening to a lunchtime call in radio show about jws and the personal experiences of being disfellowshiped, and a former elder called in saying he was disfellowshiped for asking about jws and their involvement in the un in the 1990s ,and he just said look it up.. thinking that it was a made up lie ,so i looked it up and it was true even a letter confirming it from the un itself and that led me here and to jwfacts and further research into the history and teachings of jw and walked out the door about 5 years ago.

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  Longlivetherenegades

  Trying to provide a rebuttal against Ray Franz books. It was a bridge too far or mission impossible. 2 - 3 years later, disassociated.