Posts by Journeyman

14

Cedar Point Ohio 🙄🙄🤦🏻‍♂️

by xaminewt in

i started doubting the organization when i was 15. i spent the next 12 years doing in-depth research involving numerous emails with bible scholars and scientists.

i finally left the organisation 3 years ago.

technically i was never actually a jw as i was never baptised, so i’m not being shunned.

It's interesting that even the present-day GB realised what a mess they had on their hands with the legacy of all these overly-detailed and proscriptive "prophetic" statements about specific events in the history of the Bible Students' and early JWs.

That's why, a few years ago, they had a clear out by simply declaring that "types" and "anti-types" were to be discarded unless the Bible explicitly makes such comparisons.

The problem for the org is, at a stroke, they undermined the vast majority of all their detailed "justifications" for being Jehovah's sole anointed channel in modern times, as foretold from of old in Scripture. So no more are the anointed or elements of the organisation's history the "Greater or lesser" this or the "Typical or anti-typical" that.

I don't think even now most JWs realise the huge ramifications of the GB tearing up all of that "spiritual heritage" in one fell swoop. (JWs of the older generations, in mean - anyone who's been in the org less than about 15-20 years would have no idea anyway about all these old "prophetic" interpretations). All those articles, all those study publications - the two Isaiah Prophecy books, the Rev Climax book, the Jeremiah and Daniel books, etc - all consigned to a weird limbo where they exist buried in the JW Library as text only (and of course hard copies mouldering on the shelves of older Witnesses), but are never officially referred to in meetings or publications now.

For many older ones, it's probably why so many have now left or drifted and either become inactive or are just coasting along. What's the point, when everything you have invested your hopes and energies into for decades has now been erased at a stroke, by the very people who are supposed to be your "spiritual shepherds", feeding you "life-saving food at the proper time"?

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Sir Mark Rowley is taking a page out of the Lloyd Evans playbook

Not really. There is an extradition treaty between the US and UK and a well-established history of exchanging suspects for trial.

True, some cases are more controversial, and the US does have quite a poor record of complying with international agreements and laws when it comes to allowing their own citizens to face justice abroad for their crimes (in stark contrast to their habit of invading other countries or putting serious pressure on other governments to extradite people they want to see in US-run courts), but still, the situation is hardly comparable to the relationship between the Croatian judicial system and the UK or USA.

23

How would you rate the Watchtower approved songs?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i was asking why jws won't sing any church hymns even if they were doctrinally correct.

jws asked me in response if i would sing any of their songs.. dan watkins wrote .

its a hilarious misunderstanding, if it does not come from the watchtower bible and tract society, then it is effectively considered as coming from satan.

Journeyman

The music is more and more "simplified" by the WTS and not for the good. [...] Songs were better in the beginning[...]. I expect a deeper descent into mediocrity.

I completely agree. The decline in quality is noticeable in the songs for meetings, and the additional "original" songs are almost entirely banal, corny and/or childish. Some are quite blatantly "Disneyfied", with awful animations and twee lyrics to accompany them.

Along with the JW ~~Televangelism~~ Broadcasting channel, it's a clear example of how the org has completely become what it once railed against. In the past, "Christian pop/rock" of the past was mocked (often quite rightly), but now the concept has been adopted wholesale. Witnesses who died before 2014 would be turning in their graves!

It's interesting how often the org bangs on about their "rich spiritual heritage", yet songs not currently on the "approved" playlist are never replayed, and anyone at a "gathering" bringing out an old CD or ripped media of Kingdom Melodies from before the new grey songbook was released would probably be looked at as if they were an apostate!

26

Worldwide Benefits ( USELESSNESS ) of Cart Witnessing

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

library.

meeting workbooks.

life and ministry meeting workbook | november 2018. .

Journeyman

Haven't seen any carts near me in the usual places for ages now - have they slacked off because they don't have to report ministry the same way now I wonder??

Anecdotally, from my area of the UK that does seem to be the case. There seem to be far fewer publishers taking out the carts on a regular basis, even now. In the past, although the numbers would drop in the winter, in summer it would increase again and we would have many - up to a few dozen - doing the work at various places outside parks and shopping centres each week. This summer though, numbers have barely risen from their winter low. Just the same hardcore 10-12 people.

It was to my understanding that in order to get to stand by the apathy carts,,,,that your ''hours" had to be exemplary.

Yes, I do wonder how elders are supposed to determine who is "exemplary" by JW standards now - unless they are "pioneers", who still have to report hours. And even then, if the pioneers I know of are anything to go by, most of them are struggling to meet their hours due to overwork, depression, loneliness and various health issues. Or conversely, they are the long-time pioneers who seem to treat it as a "career" and jet off on holidays and disappear frequently to visit other friends and congregations, while still seeming to complete their pioneering each year.

Of course, elders could look at how well someone is showing all the "fruitage of the spirit" rather than just quantitative measures like how many meetings they are at, how many talks and comments they give and so on, but the org has always been driven by numbers over actual qualities.

There's supposed to be some big campaign coming in October in London to push the ministry, with Witnesses from outside the UK coming to the capital to assist in a mass preaching campaign. It will include both house-to-house and "public witnessing" (more carts).

We'll see by November if it turns into something noticeable or just another here-today-gone-tomorrow "nothing burger". It's certainly an odd time to choose. October in the UK is not the best time with darker evenings closing in, and it's likely to be colder with more unpredictable weather. Some time between the Memorial and the start of the so-called "convention season", maybe in April, May on June, would probably have been better. I'm not sure if the decision on the date was made by the UK Branch, but if feels more like another example of an out-of-touch GB in the USA making decisions for other countries.

9

Have 3 buildings disappeared from the new Italian Bethel under construction since 2019? What happened to them?

by LaFrancia in

if anyone knows more, a comment is welcome.

if you visit the official jw website and search for bologna it will take you to some articles and 1 video.

the site shows a building completed in 2020 with 41 apartments, there is a photo with alleged bethelites looking out from the balconies and waving.

Journeyman

Ok, I checked the site wannaexit linked to, and there is this updated info (Google-translated from Italian as I sadly do not read the language):

The building, previously owned by the Revenue Agency, was purchased by the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in December 2017.

The first activities carried out were the preparation and safety of the construction site, as well as the strip-out of the building itself.

From the structural examination of the construction, dating back to the mid-1990s, it was immediately clear that it did not comply with the most recent national and Community anti-seismic regulations.

To align the building with community and national seismic regulations as well as modern best practices, we used a company specialized in anti-seismic adaptation. (I suppose that explains why an outside secular company was required - sounds like the Org got conned by the seller into buying a non-compliant building!)

The completion of the works is expected by the end of 2025. (Yet ANOTHER year added on?!)

The new construction will host offices, multipurpose rooms, a canteen with kitchen and various departments to support the work of the hundreds of volunteers expected from all over the world.

The rest of the site has this information:

The ownership of the former Sabiem area was acquired by the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses on 30 June 2021. The municipal council then approved the project on 19 July 2021.
The then deputy mayor Valentina Orioli stated: “What we have approved is a perfect urban regeneration operation that will allow the redevelopment of an abandoned industrial area located in an inhabited area, making many public facilities available to the community.
This brings to a close a complex story that originates from the bankruptcy of Sabiem. With the acquisition of the property by the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses it was finally possible to compensate the workers who had lost their jobs. I want to acknowledge the new ownership for having worked seriously and with the aim of closing this important agreement."
The project involves the construction of three 10-story buildings that will serve as homes for hundreds of Jehovah's Witness volunteers. Together with the residences, a public park will also be created which will have an area of approximately 16,000 thousand square metres.
In this area, two public green areas will be created, a cycle path and two car parks. A place of worship will also be built next to the Municipal Multipurpose Hall.
The project involves the construction of a Municipal Multipurpose Hall of approximately 250 square metres.
The construction will be fully available to the Borgo Panigale-Reno district. It will be rebuilt according to the original model and great attention will be given to the issue of environmental sustainability.
Vincenzo Naldi, president of the Borgo Panigale-Reno district at the time the agreement was drafted, explained: “I am very satisfied with this agreement which presents important contents for the neighbourhood. In particular, I like to say that the building for public use will be dedicated to activities for teenagers in a context in which we are creating a system for our young people together with the structure already open in via Martinelli in collaboration with the Golinelli Foundation and with the future structure which will be made possible by the agreement for the relocation of Sintexcal. I also underline an extra provision of parking and the valorisation, through the creation of a cycle path, of the lime trees that characterize part of this area".

Let's see if the final development really does have all these buildings in the plan, or if any get cut back.

9

Have 3 buildings disappeared from the new Italian Bethel under construction since 2019? What happened to them?

by LaFrancia in

if anyone knows more, a comment is welcome.

if you visit the official jw website and search for bologna it will take you to some articles and 1 video.

the site shows a building completed in 2020 with 41 apartments, there is a photo with alleged bethelites looking out from the balconies and waving.

Journeyman

I wonder if the Italy branch is also going to end up getting the kind of downsizing that the Britain branch got?

Originally, there was talk of a whole printery and much more accommodation at the Chelmsford complex when it was first announced and the early architects' plans released. But by the time it was completed it had been much scaled down.

From what I can see, the most recent update regarding the Italy branch was in the video LaFrancia mentioned, made in 2022 (from 2:30 to 4:00) - URL broken up to prevent hotlinking:

JW dot org /en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtAnnMtg/pub-jwb-100_11_VIDEO

There are three intriguing things I learned from it:
1) That originally the branch was intending to use volunteer Witnesses in the construction (as is usually done), but for some unstated reason they went with secular construction companies instead.
2) Although COVID inevitably interrupted the work, it is said that it only stopped construction completely for one month. So why has the project taken so long?
2) That the original finish date was to be the end of 2023 (in previous updates of 2019 and 2020), but now the latest finish date is said to be the end of 2024.

So why did they go with the additional costs of a secular construction company?
And why has the project taken so long, with at least a year being added to the completion date?

wannaexit is probably right about money running out, especially as they went to outside construction companies rather than use their pool of free labour. But knowing the lack of transparency from the Org, Italian Witnesses will probably not get satisfactory answers to any questions they might have.

65

WT needs your kids uneducated: CO training video is Master Class in F.O.G. This is jaw-droppingly stupid. Beyond moronic, it's sub-moronic.

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

co training video: link to ex-jw reddit thread discussion.

today is the first time i was made aware of this actual elder body video.

it's training for how a co should handle elder's whose children decide to pursue further education.

Journeyman

KerryKing used a key word earlier: agendas

Any individual, group or government trying to push education with any sort of agenda is going to distort facts and create people whose "education" is limited at best.

Of course, to some extent, we all have what could be called "agendas" or "ulterior motives". A healthy society has to be built on some sort of consensus and agreed norms.

But when these are enforced by fear, threats, and emotional or physical abuse - as is the case in high control groups and even, increasingly, in general society with concepts like CRT, and various political and social theories taught as fact and now being backed up by laws and with "cancel culture" - that's when "education" can turn bad.

Critical thinking - in other words, the ability to analyse and weigh evidence, and apply reason, as freely as possible from personal bias and assumptions - is vital, so as not to be mislead by any intellectual dishonesty, whether it's from religions, politicians, corporations or social movements.

You don't have to be taught at home, or in some kind of separate commune, university or seminary.
You don't have to travel to other parts of the world.
You don't have to be either religious or non-religious.
You don't have to conform either to past views of history, race, gender, etc, nor to the new orthodoxies on these subjects that current "influential" people are trying to promote.

But you do need to be prepared to relinquish your own personal pet assumptions, or at least suspend them in order to evaluate new experiences and evidence you are exposed to. (We all need to have a working model of the world in our minds - you'd go crazy without one. But we should be able and willing to modify it if the facts require it.)

We also need to be prepared to recognise that other people have differing models of how the world works in their minds, and live by those, and that that is fine and not something we should fear or fight against (as long as they are not trying to influence others by force).

Another thing that is essential in clear, critical thinking but is sadly being lost in most communities is being able to assess issues and act in a calm and dispassionate manner: not getting over-emotional or hyped up with rage, nor becoming aggressive or militant. We're seeing increasing polarised attitudes on many issues, leading to aggression and abuse. We're seeing it in all the flashpoint issues of our time: L v R politics, immigration, race, gender, big pharma, anti-capitalism, etc.

65

WT needs your kids uneducated: CO training video is Master Class in F.O.G. This is jaw-droppingly stupid. Beyond moronic, it's sub-moronic.

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

co training video: link to ex-jw reddit thread discussion.

today is the first time i was made aware of this actual elder body video.

it's training for how a co should handle elder's whose children decide to pursue further education.

Journeyman

The Borg has no scripture to base their stance on education

This is a key point to me, and it has always amazed me how adamantly opposed to ANY sort of further or higher education the org is. There are plenty of scriptures that highlight the value of knowledge, of using the "power of reason", and so on.

The apostle Paul was a highly educated man of his time, as were a number of other disciples and apostles. His education actually became a benefit to the early Christians, as the org often points out (whether knowingly or not) whenever they talk about him reasoning with the Greeks about the statue to an "unknown god", being able to preach to "all sorts of men" (including kings and governors), and so on.

All of this points to the fact that being educated in a "worldly" sense is not inherently wrong - it's about WHAT you learn and HOW you use it (as most people would recognise).

As some have said, I can understand warning the congregation of temptations from certain types of association, or even certain academic subjects - but to make a blanket ruling against all additional education beyond the minimum, and to "enforce" it by threatening to punish fathers who are elders or ministerial servants is crazy. And those same warnings apply to life in general. In the workplace, or just in your own neighbourhood, you will encounter people who could be "bad association" - you just have to learn to deal with that, not run away from it. Didn't Jesus also say Christians should be "in the world, but no part of it"?

In wealthier and more educated countries, the org has made some low-key concessions in recent years by talking vaguely about "if there is the need to take on further education to earn a living", which is generally equated with vocational skills (which of course are valuable in themselves), and in places like that, it's generally accepted now for youths to go to college for practical courses without any suspicion or accusations, but clips like this show the org are still very resistant to come out and state that being educated in itself is fine, and can (and should) be an honourable goal.

By so strongly discouraging further and higher education, the GB are shooting themselves in the foot in terms of trying to maintain a future for the organisation. This will continue to drive young (and not-so-young but intellectually hungry) people away, and also disillusion more MS and elders who want to see their children develop themselves.

11

Relevant message on Reddit about current elders

by Gorb in

jw
friends

read this relevant message on reddit, about current elders.. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1eb0ees/the_changes_are_affecting_elders_the_hardest_in/.

spot on, isn't it?.

gorby.

Journeyman

Don't blame the Governing body because elders just follow along. They need to stand up for what they believe and be their own people.

That's all well and good, and in some cases I do agree (especially up until the recent past) that that might have been the case, but in recent years - certainly since around the 2000s when the current GB began to come together - there are a number of things that mitigate against that.

1) In some - perhaps many - congregations, some elders hold more sway than others. For example, where you have families where two or more men (perhaps father and son) are on the body of elders. In these cases, even if you are an elder trying to appeal to mercy and leniency in a judicial matter, you could be overruled and possibly even brow-beaten into changing your view to accept the harsher outcome because more influential or dominant elders force their opinion on the rest.

2) In areas where the organisation has completely changed the direction - such as the subject of submitting ministry hours, or in some doctrinal matters, you could have been a faithful elder agreeing with, and obeying, exactly what you are told for years, but now you are expected to do a complete 180° turn, yet still hold to the idea that when you were doing the exact opposite you were also doing the right thing. In such cases, that's not the choice of the elder at all - it's the GB that has moved the goalposts by "reinterpreting" the Scriptures and how they should be applied.

Also, bear in mind that in areas where elders had more discretion in the past, that has often been taken away and replaced with more explicit direction. Think for example of all the branch letters these days which give minute detail about how to carry out actions and convey information, along with frequent revisions to the elders' Shepherd book on what should or should not be done in various matters.

Think also of the congregation meetings themselves: years ago, the organisation provided an outline programme in the Kingdom Ministry of how each midweek meeting should be conducted, but local elders could (and did) deliver and emphasise points according to their own discretion for their own congregation. Now meetings are increasingly proscriptive, often with videos which are expected to be played directly, and only limited, pre-formatted questions which must be asked, with no additional time for variation or deviation from the "script". Likewise, the CBS, which has been brought into the main midweek meeting and so now has little variance, and also often has significant video segments (depending on the publication). Even the CO visits can have video clips directed from "on high" from GB HQ itself.

The room for elders to apply their own "Bible-based conscience", knowledge of the local Witnesses, or personal discretion has been severely reduced in many areas, now that everything is provided directly from "mother" online and in videos and broadcasts.

136

List of UK Travelling Overseers in 2013

by soiledumpling in

hi pepeep am attempting to get a current list of uk travelling overseers.

left 4 years ago and have heard rumours of many new ones.

.

Journeyman

Is Andrew Smith still on the circuit?

Was he short and chubby? Quite friendly for a CO? If so, he reminded me of a hamster - small and round with no neck! Seemed decent enough, although I didn't really have any dealings with him.

Last I heard, he was on a foreign language circuit somewhere in London. Arabic I think? But that was just before COVID so he'd be somewhere else by now I reckon.