Posts by wannahelp

31

How would you respond to this?

by openminded in

jw
friends

i got this letter today from a friend of my dad who i have not seen in years.

please respond to any or all of it as you see fit.

it pretty much sums up witness mentality.

wannahelp

Hi OM,

I just read the letter, and had to reply.. But first, I have to introduce myself a bit, since I don't believe we've met before..

I am not, nor have I ever been a JW.. I have a friend whom is a JW, and I think that he is having doubghts, so I have been doing alot of research on JW's (Even read both of Ray Franz' books)..

Anyway, a few points came to mind while reading your dad's friends letter:

A.) Both my friend and your dad's friend seem to write with the same style, and the same missing or misspelled words.. In fact, the letter could almost be from my friend, except his writing style is a little younger (being only 21).. If you reread the letter, I think you'll notice many missing words (an, to, and, etc.. etc.. etc..) Really strange.. That was the very first thing I noticed when I started reading his emails to me...

B.) Your dad's friend goes on to say that the GB is setting 'limits' to protect their 'flock'.. He then states that college is not forbidden in the bible, so it's up to you if you choose to go or not.. But then he says why the GB discourages it.. (Protects you).. Of course, the GB is free to 'protect you' with restrictions in other ways that are not bible based.. Wouldn't you think that if the GB thought college was the 'root' of evil that your friend says it is, and especically because they have 'lattitude' from God to protect as they see fit (making an occasional error or two, but who's counting.. It will be corrected in future light) wouldn't it be prudent of your 'parents' to ban college altogether? -- Maybe they are being a little under-restrictive in this part, and shirking their 'parental' duties??

C.) Also, your dad's friend stated that, "If you have a strong faith in God then you will determine what he requires and what standards he sets and attempt to conform to them"... I'd be very interested in his interpretation of YOU, as from what I've read, no-one but an annointed can determine what god wants from us mortals, as only they can understand the entire bible... And, that also leads to the questions, where is the GB in that statement.. I guess even your father's friend doesn't need the GB anymore..

D.) As for the GB producing better people than the rest of the world, I would send an email to your dad's friend a few nights before the dateline special (assuming it hasn't aired yet.. Does anyone know when that will be, I am planning on letting my friend know all about it) on the JW child abuse stuff.. Have your father's friend watch that and then comment on the 'better people' part... Also, have him comment on the GB and the 'protecting parents'...

E.) Interestingly enough, you obviously are questioning things.. It seems that your dad's friend did at one time also.. Hmm, let's do some math.. Both the writer and intended reader of the letter are both JW's.. Both of them were or are 'confused' to use your father's friends wording at one time or another.. By that statistic, I can state that 100% of JW's are confused at one point or another in their lifetime <hehe>..

F.) I'd love to hear his reasoning on how he can determine that the world cannot be happy, since he doesn't consider himself part of the world... Just because he wasn't happy when he was part of the world doesn't automatically mean that everyone is unhappy in the world..

G.) He states that the JW are the only organization taking people out of the world and teaching them what God requires... This is based on the 'imperfect' men that god appointed to watch over his flock, yet knows of the dangers of college, and still chooses to allow the flock to attend.. More importantly, have him reread his statement of my part C.. (It's in paragraph 6 of his letter)...

H.) If the WTS is teaching people to love one another, even their enemies, why is it that they don't do charitable stuff like the Christian churces do? How do they show love to the non-believers, and contrast that to the churches that show love to non-believers.. The WTS gives the non-believers magazines, while the Christian churches provide food, shelter, clothing etc.. (Hmmm, I think that is exactly what Jesus said to do in the bible, if I recall correctly).. Also, what love do they show to apostates.. They are their "enemies" right? Don't want to be hypocritical, and only show love to certain enemies.. After all, God hates hypocrites..

I.) From the letter, paragraph 23, "This is an especially important question, in this independent thinking world, when we see evidence that God is really backing them and the evidence really supports that conclusion".. -- I'd love to hear his evidence (ask him before and after he sees the dateline special <hehe>)

J.) Also, along the same lines as 'I', ask him to look up the Pharisees.. Ask him to explain how they differ from the 'governing body'?? -- When he says that the GB protects it's flock, ask about the college issue and then ask him again about protection after the dateline story aires... More importantly, I thought the bible somewhere (sorry, not well versed in the bible) stated that each person was to test what they are being taught, and determine for themselves if they believe it comes from the word of God or not.. Now if that isn't an example of "Independent thinking" I don't know what is... This also leads into his comment from paragraph 23, "But they never compromise God's laws to do that, but Christendom compromises and so do their followers.".. They discourage independent thinking, but the bible encourages it.. Hmmm... Have him explain this one..

K.) From the letter, paragraph 25, "A Christian has restrictions that are imposed by God but we make decisions on how to live our lives".. How can the restrictions come from God, if he admits the GB is a group of fallible men who make mistakes.. Change God to GB and change Christian to JW, and I'll agree with that statement.. More improtatnly, he states that the GB has been given "lattitude".. Well, the lattitude means that the GB can do as they damn well please to 'protect'.. Well, since the GB has already written about the dangers of college, yet haven't issued an 'order' saying no college to protect their 'flock', he cannot say 'wait for a correction' since they clearly already know about it, yet haven't done anything about it yet.. Unlike some of their other 'orders' for 'the flocks protection'.. Hypocrites yet again!!!!

L.) Oh, and ask him to explain how come God's Law that states how to determine a false prophet is ignored by the GB... (yet another compromise, although that is the least of their worries with this one).. I'd love to hear whom he thinks it does apply to specifically.. Has that 'law' ever shown someone or a group as a false prophet? Contrast that with his answer.. Love to hear that one!!!

I wonder how he would respond to something like:

Since God has directed me to do my own independant thinking (a compromise with the GB) , that would mean he wants me to make my own errors, and follow what I believe in.. He does not want me to follow a group of men, as the example of the Pharisee's clearly shows.. At best, you can state from the bible that God wanted us to follow individual men (Moses, David, Jesus, etc...), but not a group...

And, if God is directing the GB, let's talk about the cleanliness of the flock after the dateline show.. If the GB's duty is to protect the flock, why do they impose some arbitrary restrictions on us to 'protect' us, while not imposing others (like the dangerous college issue)?

I'd love to hear your comments on this one from all, as I like this letter sooooo much I plan on showing it to my friend, along with my comments!!!! (I think he'll look at it)...

23

Do you legally join the WatchTower Society ?

by Simon in

jw
friends

there has been some discussion in the past on whether people became legal members of the watchtower society or not when they got baptised and whether this was made clear to them.

the wt argues that you are or are not a legal member as it suits them.. here is a thought.... on their website's privacy statement at http://www.watchtower.org/contact/privacy.htm (linked from the 'request contact' form) they say:.

will the watchtower society disclose the information it collects to outside parties?.

wannahelp

Fred,

I assume you were baptized as a Witness before June 1, 1985.. On that date, the organization changed the questions from the bible standard, "In the name of the father, son and holy spirit" to what it is now..

---

1. Repentance of your sins based on the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

2. "Do YOU realize that your baptism IDENTIFIES you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and in association with his spirit directed organization?"

---

Assuming you were baptized before June 1, 1985, I guess that means that we both serve our father without any "middle men", as I too was baptized in the "name of the father, son and holy ghost" by a Roman Catholic priest back when I was a little tyke... Truth be told, howerver, I don't goto church.. Every church I've ever been in is too caught up on ceremony, or worshipping "men" than on actual worship of god himself.. I'm sure you can relate...

If you were baptized after June 1, 1985, I'd love to hear how you claim to have been baptized to serve our father (where did the authority to not follow bible standard come from?) , and not be legally "associated" with the Watchtower organization...

BTW: I'm very happy to see you do have an open mind, and understand that all Chrisitan religions are serving our father, without need for your organization... Too bad the other 6 Million members of your religion, or the GB, don't recognize this fact...

23

Do you legally join the WatchTower Society ?

by Simon in

jw
friends

there has been some discussion in the past on whether people became legal members of the watchtower society or not when they got baptised and whether this was made clear to them.

the wt argues that you are or are not a legal member as it suits them.. here is a thought.... on their website's privacy statement at http://www.watchtower.org/contact/privacy.htm (linked from the 'request contact' form) they say:.

will the watchtower society disclose the information it collects to outside parties?.

wannahelp

Fred,

Interesting comment.. Does that mean that anyone can worship Jehovah correctly and with his (Jehovah's) approval without being BAPTIZED into the watchtower organization (corporation)?

If so, count me in, as I worship my god with all my heart, spirit and truth!!!

If not, then I think your statement is in error, as you "need" the corporation/organization to worship him.... -- And, as you know, some of the "Truth" that the organization has dished out in the past has not even been close to any truth, and in some cases, has been outright lies, , so I guess that would mean that you worship him only in spirit via the 'worldly' organization..

24

1975

by Prisca in

jw
friends

...... ......... ............... .

1975....... is the number of registered posters as of this minute!!!!.

amazing, huh ??

wannahelp

Hmm, somewhere on this board I remember a post about the crime rate in the US dropping over the past few years..

I believe that the GB says that it will take some time during the 1000 year reign of Christ to actually become "paradise Earth"..

So, maybe the sign of dropping crime rates can be spun by the GB to mean that Armageddom did indeed come invisibly in 1975, and things are getting better, just as they predicted all along

See, they knew it all along!!! [8>]

Wonder how they are gonna adress the fact that all you apostates just didn't dissapear in 1975 though? Oh well, that's for the GB to figure out... -- New Light will follow when needed, I'm sure --

9

EARTHLY ORGANIZATION???

by JUSTAMOM in

jw
friends

how many times to we hear .

earthly organization that jehovah is using.. visible this visible that!.

did not jesus say, "my kingdom was no part of this world?".

wannahelp

Hey You know:

What's gonna happen when the last of those ~ 8,000 "annointed remnants" passes on to Heaven in the next few years?

Does the "earthly organization" just dissapear altogether? (shhh, quiet everyone, applause noted, but You Know is thinking)

(Assuming of course that Armageddon hasn't happened by then, either visible or invisible <G>)

I heard somewhere that the GB has "created" a 3rd class of "Christian", and in fact I think there are a couple of this new class already on the GB, although I don't think they have voting rights yet...(They are learning for when they will be needed, after all the remnants goto heaven).. Hmmm, how can that be that you missed that very important piece of "Christian information" for all this time?? More new light saves the day I can only assume....

Gotta hand it to Jehovah.. He doesn't even trust his own "people" to have the knowledge neccesary to carry out the business of running his "Earthly organization".. He doesn't trust you guys.. What could you possibly have ever done to him that he doesn't trust you??? (False prophocies maybe?) If Jehovah doesn't trust you guys, why should I?

Or, is Jehovah, the god of order, just "winging it" and remembered about that pesky problem you guys are gonna have "down below" when you run out of remnants, and threw ya a bone -- Errr, new light..?

Or, here's a possibility.. Maybe Jehovah has absolutely nothing to do with your organization at all, and the GB realized about that pesky problem of how to keep the cult alive after all the self-appointed annointed ones die off (Hey, I created a rhime.. Self-appointed annointed <G>), and magically created a 3rd class of Christian, just like they created a 2nd class back in 1935 when they hit the 144,000 member, and realized that the 144,001 person in heaven would cause them a problem...

just a thought...

103

The "Tree" of WHAT?

by Farkel in

jw
friends

the account of adam and eve as a literal event is so full of logical contradictions that it is mind-boggling.

it only takes a minimum of scrutiny to discover that fact, too.. there is something god did not want adam and eve to know.

he didnt want them to know the difference between good and evil.

wannahelp

Here's another take on that story..

What if we weren't created by god, but evolved naturally like the rest of the living creatures on the earth?

The difference that seperates us from the rest of the animals is that we can reason, and most importantly, we are aware of our own existence, and thus, are aware that we will eventually die..

Is it possible that the "tree of knowledge" represented the point when man became aware of his existence? I.E. At that point, he became man, and not just an animal living for his animal existence (food, procreation, shelter).. But, once we "knew" that we were alive and were able to make choices for our own existence, we could feel "happy, sad, anger, etc...".. And, of course, we also knew that we would die some day...

Just a thought..

17

WTBS Made a Huge Mistake!

by patio34 in

jw
friends

i was tempted to write the wtbs today.

i'm reading a loaned copy (from my younger sister, 'waiting') of ray franz's "in search of christian freedom.

" it is a masterful point-by-point refutation of the wts doctrine.

wannahelp

Hi JT:

It's funny that you mention that non JW's cannot understand why you hang on, and don't even see it..

I've been quietly trying to show my JW friend for quite some time now the real "truth".. At times, I think he has seen glimpese of it, but then he appears to put his head back in the sand like the preverbial ostrich.. It's very frustrating to me, but I know that I have to be patient with him..

I cannot comprehend, although I wish I could, exactly how he, or anyone else in his or your position, could feel once they begin to question the very thing they have devoted their life to.. In his case, he was born into the cult, so he's never known anything else..

Interesting comment, and yeah, since I've never been a JW, all I can do is at best watch him fall apart and help pick up the pieces if and when he comes to the realization that he's been living a lie...

Such trama, I feel for you all, even if I never will be able to fully sympathize with you...

13

Moscow and France cracks down on the Jehovah's Wit

by Kent in

jw
friends

hi folks;.

take a look at http://watchtower.observer.org.

the latest news is that moscow and france have decided not to accept the jehovah's witnesses after all.. a victory for common sense!.

wannahelp

Well,

About 6 months ago I showed my friend a news report about the JW's having to goto court in Germany to defend:

A.) Focibly keep people from leaving the cult (ooops, religion)
B.) Didn't commit child abuse

His response:

We expect that God's word will be stifled by Satan near the end, so this is a good sign..

Ughhh... I can only assume that when the R&F JW's hear about this, there will be much rejoicing as this will be presented as a sign that Armageddom is "right around the corner" ...

Mind Control Cults --- Ya gotta stand in Awe of their ability to twist events in the minds of their followers to suit their own purposes, irreguardless of the facts..

19

What's So Special About These One's?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

im intrigued by the jws teachings re the 144,000 and i would much appreciate some input.. i mean, is their any real scriptural back-up to say that a set number of people will go from earth to heaven, or is this just a witness interpretation thing?.

also, how does this remnant become aware that they have a calling?

does the wtbts tend not to persecute these ones, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others?.

wannahelp

anglise and patio34,

Get a copy of the book

"Approaching Jehovah's Witnesses in Love" by Wilber Lingle..

It explains in that book, Chapter 7, using the witness's own bible and evidence, that even if the 144,000 is a literal number, there could not possibly be any spaces left, therefor, it's impossible for anyone on Earth today to be of the "annointed" class the JW's claim exist..

19

Dear Brother "You Know"

by AMNESIAN in

jw
friends

brother, please, if you would, inform as to exactly what your genuine view is of the wbts and, particularly, the gb in relation to bible prophecy, christianity, and its self-professed role as the so-called "fds" and sole spokesman for jehovah?

much of what you post (or, at least, the posts i've read) is clearly at tremendous odds with their published teachings, yet, on its face, your position seems to be as one of their staunchest defenders/supporters.

i don't wish to in any way ridicule you ---there's a bit too much of that around here (from you included!

wannahelp

You Know:

I am impressed by your post to me on Conditional/Unconditional love... You actually made me think a great deal about the whole topic..

I have but one question.. You admit that you are a fallable human being, being led by fallable human beings themselves..

However, it is inconceivable to you that you are possbily wrong about your organization being god's channel. I.E. You claim infallablility on that count.. So, you've elevated yourself to rightousness in this stance.

And, as a rightous human being (infallable in this arena) you are passing judgement on others that is reserved for Christ and God.. For only they can judge.. Yet, you, because of your being led by a fallable organization are able to claim infallability in this area and state:

A.) The "world" is your enemy
B.) We'll show conditional love to "them" to lead them to see our "truth"
C.) After a period of time, we'll judge them as unworthy of our love, and withdraw it if they have not taken root in our "truth" the way we see it, and accept the entire package, lock stock and barrel, including ignoring the errors, the false prophecies, and man made rules..

You try to imitate Jesus Christ, yet you say only Jesus and Jehovah can judge as only they are infallable, we as humans are not..

How is that an imitation of Jesus.. Doesn't the very fact that you are attempting to claim rightousness in the area of spirituality diminish Jesus and what he did for us? More to the point, aren't you attempting to at best claim to be equal to Jesus, at worst claim to replace him altogether?

And that's why I claim that I love people unconditionally.. Yes, I'm quite fallable.. I don't love everybody unconditionally, as I believe I should (for putting a condition on love is judging someone as unworthy of love, something only Jesus and/or God can do, not me, for I don't claim infallability)..

I also know that because I have a personal relationship with Jesus and God, I don't have to worry about a 'bad association' ruining my relationship with them.. It would be the same as saying, "I have a friend who dislikes my father, so I cannot be with that friend, because he will turn me against my father.." If I love my father whole heartidly, my friend cannot do that, no matter what he does or says...

In fact, the more my friend would try to pull us apart, the closer my father's and my relationship would become..

You, and your organization on the other hand, shun anyone who doesn't believe as you do, or even dare disagrees with anything the GB says, even if it is wrong. Is that because you are "spiritually meek" or "spiritually weak"? A spiritually meek person would welcome a conversation to either re-affirm or re-adjust one's thinking to try and get closer to god. A spiritually weak person would be afraid of such a conversation because they are too set in their ways to even entertain the idea they are wrong.. (I.E. Claim infallability on the subject, and close the mind.. Not very humble at all if you ask me)

I feel I am spiritually meek, and as such I'm always open to new ideas, and welcome hearing different views and opionions.. I don't claim that I am right, nor do I claim that I have the truth.. Therefor, I don't take judging people into my own hands... (Yeah, I fall short many times, and do judge.. But I shouldn't, and I don't make it a directive of mine).. On the other hand, your organization does make it a directive to judge in the name of rightousness, a rightousness that only Christ himself can claim.. )

As it does state in the bible that everyone will have to account personally at the time of judgement, what are you going to say to Christ when your time comes?.. I tried to imitate you as best I could, although as you know I am fallable, but I became infallable in the area of my spirituality, and was able to judge people in rightousness as you did.

I wonder what Christ will reply to you when you say this to him...

Oh, and for the record, that doesn't sound very humble to me...

I view conditional love as a human fallability, a falling short, as you said yourself, Jehovah shows even his enemies love and underserved kindness. First off, where is the master list that show's who is Jehovah's enemies.. We do not know who his enemies really are unless you had a direct connection to him.. Well, the very fact that 'gods channel' has made mistakes invalidates the claim that you are in good communication with Jehovah, for he doesn't make mistakes, nor does he mislead anyone... Truth is always truth with him... It never changes, it never 'waffles' back and forth, and it certainly doesn't mislead his own chosen people.

So, how do you know who his enemies are, unless you claim an infallability that you cannot possibly posess, for then you are claiming you and all the rest of the 6 Million+ Jehovah's witness' on earth are little re-incarnations of perfect human beings.. Of course, that can't be it, because all of you admit that you make mistakes..

So, all I do is understand that I do not have the right to judge others (Yeah, I do at times, because I fall short, as I am fallable), and try to show unconditional love and friendship to all that I can.. No strings attached, other than to help them on their way to grow and become happy in their life.. For, I have no idea if they are more acceptable to God than I am.. And whoa be the person who turns his back on an 'angel' of the lord... Yet, if I allow an enemy of the lord into my house, I'm willing to bet that Christ will view that as undeserved kindness, and maybe even a chance for him to 'preach' to his enemy through me in an effort to bring the lost sheep back into his fold...

Either way, I don't see how conditional love can in any way be godlike, except for god himself...

I could be wrong, and if I am, please show me the error's of my way, and I'll re-adjust my thinking accordingly... But, the fact of the matter is I could be right also...

If you want to live as JW, and believe you are infallable in the area of spirituality, that is fine.. I'm just pointing out why I believe at the moment that I should not. I'm also stating that I could certainly be your friend, and love you as a human being no matter what your choice is in life. Of course, as a JW, you cannot show me the same...

I not only understand that, but I accept it, and will continue to show love and friendship to you, and any other JW not because I believe I am better than you are (again, who am I to judge, you may be right, and I just don't see it), but because I am being true to me and my heart. The only man-made doctrines I follow are my own... I think that will count for much on my judgement day.. You must follow your heart, and your convictions.. My only real comment to you is, I certainly don't want to appear in front of Christ and tell him that I was infallable in any aspect of my life, because I want his undeserved kindness, and I'm afraid that claiming something that was reserved only for him will anger him greatly!!!