Posts by mizpah

27

Conversation with mom today re: apostate material

by Jourles in

so my mom calls me up today here at work and asks me how things are going.

she goes on about the usual stuff, latest gossip, and other things i don't really care to hear about.

she asked me how i am coming along in my "studies" with my assigned elder.

mizpah

Jourles,

My advice would be to ease off any discussion of Watchtower doctrine/policy and cultivate the family relationship you are still able to enjoy. Jehovah's Witnesses have a "defense mechanism" that immediately creates barriers to rational discussions. When you are arguing, they are only thinking of how they can "overcome objections." I doubt any of your sincere efforts are really making a difference in your mother's attitude.

It has been my experience that such discussions only help individuals who already have doubts about the Watchtower Society. Then, it becomes a valuable tool to sort out the falsehoods of the Watchtower and an aid to make a complete break from the organization.

But if you appeal to your mother's affection by being a good and caring son, she will have little defense against the greatest weapon you have: LOVE.

36

Blasphemy

by ClassAvenger in

i was asked how come the bible says that god forgives blasphemy to the father and the son, but not the holy spirit.

if they all are god, what makes the person of the holy spirit more important regarding blasphemy than the father or the son.

sorry, i don't know much about the bible, but i'm trying to learn here, alright?

mizpah

Peacefulpete:

Of course there are parallels between any groups that draw from the Jewish faith. So, it should not be surprising that similar teachings existed between Christians, Pharisees, Essenes and other religious groups of the day. But this does not mean that the origins of Christianity came from these sources. The primary source for all was the scrolls that made up the Old Testament.

Ninecharger:

I'm not aware that there were conflicts with Paul and the Jerusalem church, Apollos and Peter. The Jerusalem church agreed with Paul. It was some of the Corinthians who were dividing their loyalties between Paul and Apollos not Paul and Apollos themselves. And, finally, Peter ended up accepting Paul's reproach for his error and corrected his conduct. All three examples are good ones for showing that consensus DID exist in the early church among the majority of faithful. It was this consensus that kept the congregations unified in Christ for most of the 1st century.

21

A real "Governing Body"?

by OHappyDay in

i'm sure the question has been asked before, but i can't help but wonder to what extent the first "governing body" was any way like the governing body today?.

is it not ironic that the apostle paul, who was not a member of the "governing body" was used by god to write most of the new testament?.

of the "governing body," only james and peter wrote anything of instruction letters to christians, one book for james and two for peter.. why, in addressing christians on life and conduct, did god apparently bypass the "governing body"?

mizpah

If there were no "governing body" in the lst century, it would be rather difficult to make a comparison or a parallel. And this seems to be the case. It appears that the congregations were somewhat autonomous. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that a "governing body" controlled the preaching of the "gospel." As noted, Paul is certainly a good example. He was led by the holy spirit and did not think to consult even the apostles and elders of Jerusalem. The one example used by the Watchtower to suggest the existence of a "governing body" falls flat upon investigation of scripture.

The Watchtower has promoted this idea of a "governing body" to lend weight to its own authority. But there is no evidence of such an arrangement in even its own early history. It's much like the Catholic claim of "apostolic succession." These groups reach back to apostolic times to give their own organization a legitimacy. But these claims lack any scriptural evidence.

7

Trinity...an attempt of Gentiles to distance themselves from the Jews?

by mizpah in

i have often wondered whether the acceptance of the trinity doctrine in the church was an attempt of the gentile beleivers to distance themselves from the early jewish believers in the early church.

as the gentiles became the majority there does seem to be a concerted effort on the part of these members to eradicate any trace of the jewish origins of the church.

in fact, some of the early "church fathers" were very strong in their anti-jewish sentiments.

mizpah

Ohappyday:

No, I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are antiSemitic. But I do think that Rutherford probably was as evidenced by his "Declaration." I actually admire those JWs who did not compromise with the Nazis and ended up in the concentration camps. But I wonder what the Jews would think of Rutherford's attempt to pacify the Nazis at the expense of their people. The Declaration was known by JWs in Germany who distributed it. It was also well known by all who read the Yearbook. I'm not aware of any JWs who protested the contents or the spirit of the Declaration. Do you? So, at least, JWs of that time seem to have spread the anti Semitic sentiments of Rutherford.

3

Does The WTS Have The Right To Interpret The Bible For Mankind?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

if the apostles, who were closest to jesus and chosen by him, never wrote their own interpretation of the old testament, why does the wts feel they can interpret the entire bible and still get it wrong so often?

if in fact, there was a governing body for christians back in the 1st century, why didn't they go about interpreting daniel's prophecies the way the current gb does today?

if the 1st century christians were god's chosen people, why didn't they go from door to door placing scrolls filled with bible interpretations?

mizpah

Latin:

Good points! The Watchtower can claim to be God's prophet organization today...but it always comes with disclaimers. Whenever its predictions fail, it falls back on the explanation that its writings are "not inspired" like Bible writers. It reminds me of the drug industry of today. First we are deluged with ads that promise wonderful results and cures if you swallow the pill. But then it quickly follows through with disclaimers that makes one wonder if the cure isn't worse than the condition.

Many of us "swallowed" the pill of Watchtower teachings. But we should have paid more attention to "fine print" of its disclaimers.

13

Is the Lord's Prayer a Hoax?

by Robdar in

from what i've learned about judaism, jews believe that god is both male and female and cannot be described in one gender only.

this leads to this question: is the lord's prayer, which starts out with "our father, who art in heaven" really be a prayer that jesus taught us to pray?

if jesus was jewish, and evidence seems to point that way, why would he use a male gender identity to describe god when teaching people how to pray?

mizpah

Judaism is not the result of one quotation from a rabbi or one treatise of a Jewish scholar. Judaism has its historical roots in the beliefs of the first century Pharisees. Their beliefs came from their interpretation of the Old Testament. Modern Judaism reflects the same beliefs.

Of course God has no gender. He is a spirit. But the Old Testament clearly represents him in masculine terms just as Israel is presented in feminine terms. This tradition was clearly carried on the the New Testament. To suggest that the Lord's prayer is something of later origin because it was directed to "Our father" is ludicrous. I suppose the next step is to question Christ's masculinity? Religious feminists are "grasping for straws" to promote their own agenda.

19

Time for JW's to make a name change, one of Rutherford few that are left

by run dont walk in

considering the majority, if not all of rutherford's teachings are all but dead, the only two i can think of that are still strongly supported are........... 1) heavens doors closed in 1935 (which is probaly on it's way out the door as well).

2) changing the name from international bible students to jehovah's witnesses.. so to completely eliminate rutherford what would the jehovah's witnesses change their name to next ?????????.

this should be humourous !!!!!!!!!!!!!

mizpah

Ohappyday:

I add my "amen" to your observations. Have you noticed how many cults and sects ...even some Fundamentalists....usually appeal to the Old Testament "types" to justify the severity of their faith? Certainly, this has been true in the Watchtower Society. I remember when disfellowshipping action was likened to the "stoning" of a person in ancient Israel. I would hate to think what the Watchtower Society would do if it was the ruling power over us today. I'm sure it would set up an antitype "theocratic system" with rules based on Old Testament precedents. Well, I guess we wouldn't be around long enough to protest.

36

Blasphemy

by ClassAvenger in

i was asked how come the bible says that god forgives blasphemy to the father and the son, but not the holy spirit.

if they all are god, what makes the person of the holy spirit more important regarding blasphemy than the father or the son.

sorry, i don't know much about the bible, but i'm trying to learn here, alright?

mizpah

I do not object to your right to pursue whatever course you choose and to believe whatever conclusions you reach. But I do question some of your statements upon which you base your premise.

1. There is no consensus among "modern scholars" as to the origin of Christian teachings. Scholars have as many theories as clergymen have doctrine.

2. If the scrolls that were found in and around Qumran prove not to be of the Essenes, then all your speculations about the Essenes being the main influence of Christian belief mean nothing.

In the past few years, we've heard of many theories about where Christ got his knowledge. A few years ago, speculation was made about Christ having travelled to India to learn from the great mystics. Theories and speculations come and go. But the New Testament remains the only reliable record of Christ and his teachings. In it, his birth, his early childhood and his ministry clearly shows the Jewish origins of his life and teachings.

7

What happened to the New Covenant

by Blue in

good afternoon everyone,.

nobody ever mentions the new covenant anymore.

all we hear is doom and gloom, agony and despair.

mizpah

I think it is probably a matter of whether "the glass is half full or half empty." Some religions concentrate on the judgment aspects of the Bible that ends in death and destruction. Certainly this is true of the Watchtower Society. Others concentrate on the teachings of Christ about love, mercy, kindness and life everlasting. Having been on both sides, I must say that I am willing to leave the judgment to God and enjoy the life that is left to me by sharing these qualities that Christ showed to me with family, friends and stangers.

13

Is the Lord's Prayer a Hoax?

by Robdar in

from what i've learned about judaism, jews believe that god is both male and female and cannot be described in one gender only.

this leads to this question: is the lord's prayer, which starts out with "our father, who art in heaven" really be a prayer that jesus taught us to pray?

if jesus was jewish, and evidence seems to point that way, why would he use a male gender identity to describe god when teaching people how to pray?

mizpah

The first important question should be whether it is true that Judaism viewed God as male and female. My sense is that the Old Testament uses the male gender to describe God because of male primacy in the Scriptures. This is not to denigrate the woman's position. But God is pictured as a King, a Warrior and as a Bridegroom to Israel. Israel, on the other hand, is pictured as a woman, faithful and unfaithful.

One should be careful when stating a premise that may not be true and then build a theory around it. A teacher who had a course in logic gave a good example.

Snow is white, paper is white...therefore snow must be made of paper.