Some thoughts on unions

by JeffT 343 Replies latest members politics

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  JeffT

  This may or may not come as a surprise to some of you, but in many cases I support unions and their workers, most notably in the construction trades. After twenty-five years of financial managment in the real estate industry I have a fair amount of background on the matter. As I told one employer a couple of years ago, we can pay them to do it right or we can pay somebody else to do it over. When I'm paying out on a $100,000 contract, I'd like to know the workers know what they're doing.

  The above comment was prompted by the discovery that the plumbers were fixing pipes with duct tape. I'm only the accountant but I'm pretty sure that doesn't meet code.

  The trade unions have done a good job of training their people through apprentice programs, and the contracts require the majority of work to be performed or supervised by journeymen.

  Just for the record, I don't shop at Walmart for a variety of reasons, worker treatment is one of them. The two grocery stores I frequent (Safeway and a local outfit called Central Market) are both Union shops. The other one near me, Fred Meyer (Kroger for you in the midwest) is a demonstration that being in a union is not the only thing that makes workers happy. I don't know what's wrong with them, but I hate going into the place.

  As far as collective bargaining, the relationship between workers and unions encourages negotiation. The workers don't get paid while they're on strike, and my employer will be losing money while the project isn't getting built. Eventually the mutual pain leads to deal and we all get back to work.

  Rightly or wrongly, there is a perception that this dynamic does not apply in the case of public sector unions. For example, a few years ago there was a VERY bitter school strike not far from Seattle. The teachers were out for 50 days. When it was finally over, they recovered all of their money (because state law requires a set number of school days for the year) and the students made up the lost days on Saturdays or something (and on into the summer.

  The private sector unions have a good point when they say that their employers make profits and should share those profits with those that do the work. Government does not earn any profits. The only place the public sector unions have to get money is out of the tax payers pockets.

  Jeff's suggestions for public sector unions:

  1) implement programs for training your members and insuring that substandard workers are not certified as union members.

  2) agree in you collective bargaining that you don't get paid while your on strike. As a corollary, public officals should be subject to a recall vote if the unions go out. Both sides will then have some encouragment to settle it quickly. For the record I think the WI law may will be a violation of the 1st amendment right to peaceablly assemble and petition the government for redress of greivences. Note that the government doesn't have to do anything (or even listen to) the complaint, but they can't stop you from voicing it.

  3) the public unions need to recognize that in a tough economy everybody is going to have to give a little. Having to pay for part of your health plan may be the price of keeping a job.

  4) the public sector unions need to do a better job of convincing the public that we are getting something for our money (see #1 above).

  I think all of this would go a long way to keeping the peace on this matter.

  FYI and a side note; I'm now a 99er. I would happily pay half my health insurance cost if somebody would give me a job.
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  beksbks

  Jeff, I am not a union member, but I work at a library as you know. All the full time people are union. There is a work ethic there that I find refreshing. I understand that you and others may have observed less than stellar performance, but I think it's a spurious argument that public workers are any more or less hard working than private. It's about individuals. The human animal. Some work hard some don't. I used to be a teller at B of A. Very busy branch in San Fran. I was one of two who had a sense of urgency. I used to be so irritated with the rest, that they were absolutely languid in thier response to the customer. Nevermind being almost pleased to be able to say no to any request. I went out of my way to fill the customers needs. These people had worked there for YEARS! I had people let others go ahead so they could wait for me!! It's just people and the workplace, nothing more nothing less.
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  JeffT

  Beks, note that I said "perception." I am very sure that there are many hard-working public employees. Those employees need to do something about the ones creating the bad impression. What you describe at BofA (PS I hate that bank and pulled my account some time back) is why I don't shop at Fred Meyer.
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  r51785

  I am not a union member but was in management with a large unionized company which went bankrupt in 2002. As the company lost money over time, it was popular in management to blame all its woes on the union. However the fact is we had inept management for many years. Our leadership could not adjust to changes in our industry. It was much easier to just blame the union. The fact is that Corporate America has always wanted to destroy unions. The current economic downturn has given them a good opportunity to do this. Now their Republican minions are trying to do the same in the public sector.
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  beksbks

  My point Jeffy is that it's not about public or private, it's just about human nature in the workplace. Yea I'm not a fan of them, but then I'm not a fan of any of the big guys.
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  villabolo

  JeffT:

  "The two grocery stores I frequent (Safeway and a local outfit called Central Market) are both Union shops. The other one near me, Fred Meyer (Kroger for you in the midwest) is a demonstration that being in a union is not the only thing that makes workers happy. I don't know what's wrong with them, but I hate going into the place."

  I worked at Ralph's for several years. It is, last I heard owned by Kroger. Ralphs, Safeway and Albertson were represented by the same union, United Food Workers. There was a strike 7 years ago in which workers for all three stores were locked out. The CEO, Steven Byrd, provoked the strike and accepted losses for several months knowing that the Union would run out of funds to pay it's workers a meager weekly check that was a fraction of their salaries.

  He succeeded and got what he wanted. Cashiers $14-$17 an hour, within a 2 year tenure, under pre strike wages/minimum to $15, after 7 years in the position, after the strike. When you calculate a 3% inflation rate over those 7 years that $15 becomes the adjusted equivalent of $11.55.

  Service Deli, Seafood, and Meat Wrapper (Not Butcher) positions used to start at 50 cents over minimum and end at $12 after 2 years; before the strike. After the strike it became the same 50 cents above minimum up to $10 after 7 years. Again, adjusted for 3% inflation it would diminish the $10 to $7.70, which, at the time, was 70 cents above minimum wage in this state.

  Then there's understaffing. But that's another story.

  Those workers now turn over constantly like McDonald's. Nobody stays there for those 7 years.

  Now you know what's wrong wrong with them.

  Villabolo
• 

  villabolo

  JeffT:

  1) implement programs for training your members and insuring that substandard workers are not certified as union members.

  Jeff, the unions have no control substandard workers, of which there were quite a few at my unionized store. Management was and they often times tolerated lazy workers that would hide out simply because they would be willing to go, on company time, to Starbucks to get refreshments for Management. At managements request of course.

  As for training, that too was a management thing.

  2) agree in you collective bargaining that you don't get paid while your on strike. As a corollary, public officals should be subject to a recall vote if the unions go out. Both sides will then have some encouragment to settle it quickly. For the record I think the WI law may will be a violation of the 1st amendment right to peaceablly assemble and petition the government for redress of greivences. Note that the government doesn't have to do anything (or even listen to) the complaint, but they can't stop you from voicing it.

  Huh? 70,000 UFW Supermarket workers, in Los Angeles (With very high rents), did not get paid nor did they qualify for unemployment. The meager Union emergency reserves paid me $200 a week and I could actually survive on that because my rent was unusually low. Much more highly paid Cashiers, with mortgages, would only get less than twice of that.

  3) the public unions need to recognize that in a tough economy everybody is going to have to give a little. Having to pay for part of your health plan may be the price of keeping a job.

  The eternal cry of corporate upper management has been, "sales are low!" They were saying this 10 and 20 years ago.

  4) the public sector unions need to do a better job of convincing the public that we are getting something for our money (see #1 above).

  That's right, go back to square 1. Management, not the Union, called the shots on keeping worthless but sycophantic butt sniffers.

  Also, in a non Union job that I had at Home Depot, I would have to bang my head repeatedly on my supervisor's head for months in order for them to get rid of workers that would do ABSOLUTELY NO WORK at all while "MIA". That stood for "Missing in Aisles".

  It wasn't that my supervisors didn't care. They were simply too stressed out with onerous work burdens, while working off the clock (Yes they were hourly not salaried.), to go chasing after missing workers.

  By the way, in my Unionized supermarket job, it was an open secret that Department Heads would work off the clock in order to keep their departments. Yes, they were hourly workers, not salaried. They also had an official 48 hour workweek. And this was endemic throughout the entire supermarket industry everywhere not just my store (Not just in Los Angeles but throughout the nation.).

  When I called the Union and told them about this I got a snarky reply from the Union representative. He said that people have been working off the clock for the 40 years he's been in the Union. I also sent a long 13 page letter to the Union detailing those conditions. Nothing happened.

  Working off the clock is a nation wide tradition, for hourly waged supervisors throughout this nation, whether the job is Unionized or not.

  Villabolo
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  Sam Whiskey

  Unions are why American jobs are going overseas... When an American job can be done for a fraction of the cost, why not? Cheaper wages = more profits, it's just smart money at work.
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  JeffT

  Villabolo, perhaps I was not clear on a couple of points. My suggestions are based on my experience with building trade unions and are aimed at the public employee unions. Perhaps grocery store unions need to take a look at the same list. The trade unions have very strict training programs in effect (apprentices are required to go to class, failure to show up will get them kicked out of the union). In theory at least, they learn from the journeymen on a job. It was also my observation that the hiring halls will send out the best people to the best jobs.

  In construction it seems to work.

  In my area Kroger, Safeway and Albertson's all operate on the same union contract. The people at Safeway are friendly (many know my name), helpful, and generally nice to do business with. The Kroger employees are surly and indifferent. I think store staffing may be an issue. If it makes you feel better, like I said, I don't shop there.
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  villabolo

  JeffT, I know there's a difference between unions but your thread is titled "Some thoughts on unions". I assumed that the topic would be generalized since r51785 made a comment about "Corporate America".

  Villabolo