I worked for a non-union company and received 4 days (maybe) in holidays. After 20 years they only provided 1 year vacation and that included sick leave. I now belong to a union and receive 13 paid holidays, 3 weeks vacation, and 1 week sick leave. It has not increased my productivity but has made my family and I much more satisfied with life. I can now see why the Europeans are so blessed with their days off compared to the workaholic Americans. The union has definitely benefited my family and I.
Some thoughts on unions
by JeffT 343 Replies latest members politics
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beksbks
Are you wealthy straightshooter?
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sammielee24
Wow...my dad and I were just talking about all this 'discussion' around the union issue - about how terrible it is that people are demanding workers give up a pension that might give them $20,000 a year to live on when they retire - 100 years after people fought and died so we wouldn't have to give up our lives to earn a decent living.
I watched the Triangle Factory documentary again last night and it is so sad that we are arguing about the same issues today.
Women who jumped to their deaths in flames, burned beyond recognition. Jumped into the elevator shaft in order to try and escape. The door was locked shut in the work place, the fire escape collapsed killing all the people trying to escape on it, the fire hose and ladders didn't reach the floor that was on fire - but the owners had managed to leave the building and stood watching.
For those that like to say that 100% of the risk in a business is born by the employer - think again. Workplace injury and accidents happen every single day - people die working. That's a pretty big risk and when you claim that an owner takes all the risks, you have decided for yourself that money trumps a human life. BTW - an article has been written which is interesting in explaining the fact that taxpayers really don't pay for the public pensions - the employee does. They do it by deferring wages in lieu of benefits.....sammies
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blondie
This article?
Sorry, I couldn't get it to print here.
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Sam Whiskey
I've never belonged to a Union, I don't believe in participating in fair market manipulation.
Most Unions will die...they're not competitive.
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sammielee24
Thanks Blondie. Yes, that's it. Very interesting in it's approach. sammies
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The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions
Feb. 25 2011 - 11:56 amPulitzer Prize winning tax reporter, David Cay Johnston, has written a brilliant piece for tax.comexposing the truth about who really pays for the pension and benefits for public employees in Wisconsin.Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.
How can this be possible?
Simple. The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.
Many of us are familiar with the concept of deferred compensation from reading about the latest multi-million dollar deal with some professional athlete. As a means of allowing their ball club to have enough money to operate, lowering their own tax obligations and for other benefits, ball players often defer payment of money they are to be paid to a later date. In the meantime, that money is invested for the ball player’s benefit and then paid over at the time and in the manner agreed to in the contract between the parties.
Does anyone believe that, in the case of the ball player, the deferred money belongs to the club owner rather than the ball player? Is the owner simply providing this money to the athlete as some sort of gift? Of course not. The money is salary to be paid to the ball player, deferred for receipt at a later date.
A review of the state’s collective bargaining agreements – many of which are available for review at the Wisconsin Office of State Employees web site - bears out that it is no different for state employees. The numbers are just lower.
Check out section 13 of the Wisconsin Association of State Prosecutors collective bargaining agreement – “For the duration of this Agreement, the Employer will contribute on behalf of the employee five percent (5%) of the employee’s earnings paid by the State. ”
Johnston goes on to point out that Governor Walker has gotten away with this false narrative because journalists have failed to look closely at how employee pension plans work and have simply accepted the Governor’s word for it. Because of this, those who wish the unions ill have been able to seize on that narrative to score points by running ads and spreading the word that state employees pay next to nothing for their pensions and that it is all a big taxpayer give-away.
If it is true that pension and benefit money is money that already belongs to state workers, you might ask why state employees would not just take the cash as direct compensation and do their own investing for their retirement through their own individual retirement plans.
Again, simple.
Mr. Johnston continues-
Expecting individuals to be experts at investing their retirement money in defined contribution plans — instead of pooling the money so professional investors can manage the money as is done in defined benefit plans — is not sound economics. The concept, at its most basic, is buying wholesale instead of retail. Wholesale is cheaper for the buyers. That is, it saves taxpayers money. The Wisconsin State Investment Board manages about $74.5 billion for an all-in cost of $224 million. That is a cost of about 30-cents per $100, which is good but not great. However it is far less than many defined contribution plans, where costs are often $1 or more per $100.”
If the Wisconsin governor and state legislature were to be honest, they would correctly frame this issue. They are not, in fact, asking state employees to make a larger contribution to their pension and benefits programs as that would not be possible- the employees are already paying 100% of the contributions.
What they are actually asking is that the employees take a pay cut.
That may or may not be an appropriate request depending on your point of view – but the argument that the taxpayers are providing state workers with some gift is as false as the argument that state workers are paid better than employees with comparable education and skills in private industry.
Maybe state workers need to take pay cut along with so many of their fellow Americans. But let’s, at the least, recognize this sacrifice for what it is rather than pretending they’ve been getting away with some sweet deal that now must be brought to an end.
UPDATE: Since this post was published earlier today, many commenters have made the point that, while it is true that it is state employees’ own money that funds the pension plan, when the pension plan comes up short it is up to the taxpayer to make up the difference.
There is some truth in this – but not as much as many seem to think. Because the pension plan is a defined benefit plan – requiring the state to pay the agreed benefit for however long the employee may live in retirement- if the employee lives longer than the actuarial plan anticipated, the taxpayer is on the hook for the pay-outs during the longer life.
But is this the fault of the state employees? The pension agreements are the result of collective bargaining. That means that the state has every opportunity to properly calculate the anticipated lifespan and then add on some margin for error. What’s more, the losses taken by the pension funds over the past few years can hardly be blamed on the employees.
Take a look at what Sue Urahn, an expert on the subject at the Pew Center on the States, has to say about this when describing the $1 trillion gap that existed between the $2.35 trillion states had set aside to pay for employees’ retirement benefits and the $3.35 trillion price tag of those promises.at the end of 2008-
To a significant degree, the $1 trillion reflects states’ own policy choices and lack of discipline:
- • failing to make annual payments for pension systems at the levels recommended by their own actuaries;
- • expanding benefits and offering cost-of-living increases without fully considering their long-term price tag or determining how to pay for them; and
- • providing retiree health care without adequately funding it
That is the point. While the governor of Wisconsin is busy trying to shift the blame to the workers in an effort to put an end to collective bargaining, the reality is that it was the state who punted on this – not the employees.
Further, by the state employee unions agreeing to the deal proposed by Walker on their benefits (as they have despite Walker’s refusal to accept it) they are taking on much - and possibly all – of the obligation out of their own pockets.
As a result, the taxpayers do not contribute to the public employee pension programs so much as serve as insurers. If their elected officials have been sloppy , the taxpayers must stand behind it. But if the market continues to perform as it has been performing this past year, don’t be surprised if the funding crisis begins to recede. If it does, what will you say then?
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Sam Whiskey
Even Government Unions are in the crosshairs now. The the Gub'ment can't afford them.
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villabolo
You still haven't answered what several posters have said concerning outsourcing as being inevitable regardless of there being no unions and everyone being paid minimum wage.
Botom line, this psychopathic concept of the so called "free market" (An Orwellian term.) is going to put you and your kind in the
Villabolo
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beksbks
I've never belonged to a Union, I don't believe in participating in fair market manipulation.
LOL!!!
