Was Jesus the first creation.

by ajie 221 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  JosephMalik

  AuldSoul,

  I have no problem with such texts. They teach that our Lord will descend, come back here to earth in the flesh to raise humans once again. Nowhere do they indicate that our Lord will remain in the clouds and go away to somewhere else. For someone that can walk on water, something even Peter could do for a while, meeting our Lord in the air on His way down should be no problem. Raising us up from death, now I would think that would be far more difficult than just descending with Him. Strange that if we are already alive somewhere as many teach why we even need a resurrection of how we came to be dead once again to be so resurrected?

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  The question remains - where is Jesus now? LT, I answered it. He is with the Father. You said: In reference to seeds, how is it they change? A seed of a given genus is a seed of that genus. But these are used in a metaphor LT. To you point however the Kind does not change so non-human beings cannot result from them. Such thinking does not originate from God. The only thing that changes is the purpose that such seeds serve in God’s plan for his day of rest.

  Tell us what you believe and teach? What is your hope if any? Do you teach Christ was created? Let us know your position on these things so we can all be enlightened. Joseph
  
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  LittleToe

  He is with the Father.

  Who is in heaven, yes? But where is heaven? Unless I'm much mistaken you seemd to relate this to some kind of physical paradise, so how can this be?

  To you point however the Kind does not change so non-human beings cannot result from them.

  As I said before, I can agree with you on that
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  AuldSoul

  Strange that if we are already alive somewhere as many teach why we even need a resurrection of how we came to be dead once again to be so resurrected?

  I think you might be assuming some elements of my belief system that I have not stated. That would indeed be strange. However, if Christ is already human, why would he need to become corruptible again?

  You state that the texts do not indicate the Lord will remain in the clouds and then go away somewhere, yet 1 Thessalonians does indicate exactly that.

  Nowhere do they indicate that our Lord will remain in the clouds and go away to somewhere else.

  " Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"

  Pretty plain, isn't it? Sort of makes what you just said...wrong, doesn't it?

  "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;"

  This one kind of does the same thing doesn't it?

  You already proved adequately your lack of facility with the original tongues. Are you now trying to prove inadequacy with English as well? Do you believe that heaven is up/away from the earth? If not, then you do not agree with Revelation or 1 Thessalonians.

  Matthew 28:2 — And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

  Or Matthew.

  Mark 16:19 — So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

  Or Mark.

  Luke 24:51 — And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

  Or Luke.

  John 1:32, 51 — And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him...And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

  John 3:13, 31 — And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven...He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

  John 6:28-59 — Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
  I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
  The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

  Or John.

  I could go through many more, but you should have got the point by now. You must be pretty confident in your understanding of the OT symbology to dispense with all these direct statements in the NT with a casual wave of your interpretive hand.

  AuldSoul
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  AuldSoul

  Joseph,

  Plain speech: If the NT is to be believed AT ALL, heaven is not earthly.

  AuldSoul
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  JosephMalik

  Sorry LT,

  You missed the point again. Perhaps you should go back and review my comments carefully. Heaven is not a word that stands for only one thing. Like the word spirit, or Kingdom such words have many uses. You choose to limit their application the way AuldSoul limits such words. As far as Kind is concerned, this is a discussion group so here you should prove scripturally why you disagree with any point made.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Plain speech: If the NT is to be believed AT ALL, heaven is not earthly.

  Well AuldSoul, Plain speech it is. Then heaven is God and heavenly is Godly. That is the plain speech of the NT where heaven or heavens is used. The words are interchangable between Jewish and Greek Christians.

  Joseph
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  AuldSoul

  Joseph, you keep telling me. SHOW me. I keep showing you.

  Mark 12:25 — For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

  That's what he said, but he meant "angels are in God." How very interesting. While my mystic self agrees in principle, I also recognize that the Bible depicts angels as manifestations from God with individuated personalities.

  Joseph, I do believe you may be able to singlehandedly change the meaning of the Greek words ouranos, epouranios, ouranios, ouranothe, basileia, and mesouranema; and alter the Aramaic word shamayin and the Hebrew shamayim. I say "singlehandedly" because I suspect you will be very alone in your efforts. And you will be the only person for whom the meaning changes unless you start posting PROOF of your assertion that the Jews and Christians understood this matter the way you describe.

  Heaven is not at once interchangable with God, covenant, Kingdom and every other word you want to make it mean. In the course of our two discussions you have told me three different things heaven is synonomous with. If that is the case and if Jews and Christians understood it thusly, then further contextual explanation would not only recommended on the part of the writers, it would be required.

  Unless you are suggesting that God (the Father), covenant, and kingdom are all equally synonomous, in which case I can point up some very odd scriptures. For instance, Jesus made a heaven with his disciples for a God if the terms are interchangable as you suggest. If they truly are, then there is nothing in the text to indicate a different understanding than the one I just offered.

  But the simplest explanation is that scholars of Greek and Hebrew who've spent the better part of their lives trying to uncover the meaning in the original tongues of such expressions actually know more than you or I about the meaning. You haven't posted anything to make me believe you have an inkling of what the original languages mean. You haven't posted any authority on the language parts. You just keep asserting your own reasonings, which are just as flawed as any other human (see C.T. Russell, Joseph Smith, N. Barbour, J.F. Rutherford, N. Knorr, F.W. Franz, etc. asses infinitum).

  So, why exactly should I believe you have it right and I have it wrong? Because you believe you understand the symbology in Genesis correctly? You aren't the first to have that belief (see list above).

  AuldSoul
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  LittleToe

  Joseph:I'm sorry to say that you just don't lay it out plainly at all. I completely understand AuldSoul's frustration with you. Maybe you like it that we keep throwing questions at you and you can keep deflecting them, like tennis balls at Wimbeldon.

  So God is heaven and heaven is Godly. In connection with Jesus returning to the Father, arre you struggling with the inferance that the Trinity might actually be right? What's the real problem here, that you don't like the idea of Theosis?
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  LittleToe

  Ah, I see you edited in an additional love-note for me:

  Tell us what you believe and teach?

  I'll assume you mean in connection with this thread, with the following questions:

  What is your hope if any?

  I hope to be in heaven with my Lord and my God, face to face, since that's what he promised me. Having the earnest of the Spirit, God is my Father, too.

  Do you teach Christ was created?

  Nope. To me he's the eternal Son of God, the uncreated creator of everything that was created.

  Let us know your position on these things so we can all be enlightened.

  My pleasure. I attempt to speak clearly, instead of running genuine people a song and dance. After all, it's not too difficult a concept, taking scriptures for what they say and elaborating when I fail to communicate efficiently. It certainly beats getting pissy and obtuse...