Was Jesus the first creation.

by ajie 221 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  gumby

  Where is it taught in scripture that human beings will become non-human beings. Since when was that God's plan?

  Uuuuh....I think the one that says christians will put on a incorruptable body. Human beings are sinners.

  Gumby
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  JosephMalik

  Gumby,

  Nope. Nothing there. Guess again.

  Joseph
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  gumby

  Your correct joseph, that wasn't a good one

  2Cor. 5:6-10 has some interesting thoughts. Verse 10 especially. I'm sure in this 10 pages of posts it's been covered, but mention is made with being away from his body and being with the lord. Is this body spoken of here, the new physical body paul mentions when he speaks of "when that which is corruptable that will put on incorruption" in your book?

  Gumby
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  LittleToe

  I have to side with Joseph on his last couple of posts. There's nothing to indicate that humans are no longer humans, even if a change takes place. What makes a human "human"??

  However I do have to ask where you think Jesus flew off to, at his ascention, in view of your comment to AuldSoul about "flying off into the universe"?

  Futher, in reference to "seed" in my last post I actually had in mind 1.Pet.1:23:

  KJV: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
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  gumby

  I have to side with Joseph on his last couple of posts. There's nothing to indicate that humans are no longer humans, even if a change takes place. What makes a human "human"??

  Well bust my buttons! Me too!

  After reading some of his arguments he made sense in this particular regard. I'm disappointed though that material substance is floatin around in the heavens though!

  Gumby
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  JosephMalik

  4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (NIV) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. Gumby, All Paul is saying is that death is not a concern to us. Time stops at death and our next thoughts will be with the Lord in his kingdom not in a mortal body but in a new body designed to live. Our only concern is that we may be accepted of him to attain such life. (not everyone that ever lived will be resurrected into such kingdom and some found evil slaves will not be accepted by him as well) Gumby said: Is this body spoken of here, the new physical body paul mentions when he speaks of "when that which is corruptable that will put on incorruption" in your book? Yes. Paul simply contrast the mortal with the immortal in several different ways to satisfy all the Corinthians with which he was corresponding. He used words that would satisfy them both Jew (heavenly, spiritual) and Greek (corruption, incorruption). You will notice when not pressed the way he was by their first letter (where he called them fools or foolish) he lowers the bar and simply goes from mortal to life. (not spiritual, heavenly, incorruption or things like that). Back to basics more or less. LT asks: However I do have to ask where you think Jesus flew off to, at his ascention, in view of your comment to AuldSoul about "flying off into the universe"? LT, AuldSoul was applying words in a way not supported by the context in which such words were used. He gave no consideration to other uses that such words support. Jesus is human, that much we know and achieved immortality while here on earth. The Word is not human and we perceive this as well. There is no one else like him as both natures are now contained in him. Which nature applies to us? Only the (immortal) human one offered in sacrifice and raised to life once again. Even in the presence of God this human nature cannot be ignored or rejected as if it no longer exists or applies. Jesus left the earth visibly so we would know and can be assured that he will return visibly as well in this same human form the nature that applies to us. Therefore for all practical purposes there now is an (only immortal human) Jesus existing alongside the immortal God waiting to return here in the flesh once again. This is all we are supposed to know and perceive. Detail is not provided how this could be and so answers are not available beyond this. How do you make a human being from the dust of the ground or even from the spirit that returns to God at death? Exactly what is God made of? Hopeless questions to which no detailed answers are available. LT said: Futher, in reference to "seed" in my last post I actually had in mind 1.Pet.1:23: KJV: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

  Like Paul, Peter directly refers to scripture in this text the word of God which liveth and abideth of ever. In such texts we have two sets of seeds, the one from the woman and the one from the Serpent. Only one of these will survive in the end. Which one are we derived from? Can we go from one to the other? Yes, just as if we were originally born of the seed of the women in the first place. This has been illustrated in other ways in scripture as well. Wheat and weeds, sheep and goats. Wheat and sheep survive, weeds and goats do not. The choice of what we are to be is ours.

  Joseph
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  Hellrider

  The way I see it,yes, the Bible teaches bodily ressurection, especially in the Gospels. And I also think the church has been wrong in laying such little weight on this bodily ressurection, and focusing almost solely on the soul. The only problem is that the Bible also teaches the survival of the soul after the (corruptible, mortal) body dies. In acts, Stephen says, while being killed:

  7:59 They continued to stone Stephen while he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

  The eternal life of the soul can also be found in Pauls letters, hence his confusion in 2 Corinthians 12, 1-4.

  The "safest" interpretation, in my view, is the view that includes all these perspectives. The soul lives on after the body dies (perspective A). The "eternal life in Christ" ("truly I say to you, he who believes in me will never die") begins in the present, in John (perspective B). Then it continues after the body dies, with the soul going to heaven. The confusion has arisen, because, of course, if the soul lives on with Christ (and/or God, whatever) in Heaven (the third heaven), then why would there be any point in ressurecting the body? (perspective C) And hence, the (catholic and protestant) church has focused mostly on the eternal life of the soul, and on beginnin the eternal life in Christ, here, right now (perspective A and B), and not laying so much weight on the bodily ressurection.

  Just my thoughts...
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  JosephMalik

  
  Hellrider,

  Perceptions, promises, our hope with time taken out of the equation and death viewed only as sleep. That is where the problem is. Things taken literally that should have been taken in context with the plan formed in the beginning as discussed here. The idea that we will somhow be like God literally came from the Serpent and that is the thinking actually being pushed by most today.

  Joseph
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  AuldSoul

  Joseph,

  I am almost afraid to begin discussing this in view of your penchant for making up the meaning of words as you go. However, there is no question in my mind that 1 Corinthians 15 parallels 1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, Joel 2:30-32, and Revelation 6:12-11:19 beautifully. The two accounts are describing the exact same event: a changing.

  1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 — But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

  Now, unless you cannot see any correlation between what 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians describe surely you see the Lord is pictured as descending. From earth? And those who are raised will be caught away into the clouds (like Jesus was)...to meet the Lord on earth?

  When I combine te description at 1 Thess. with the description in 1 Cor. of changing into a spiritual body because flesh and blood cannot enter, I have no problem at all saying you are stretching to a try and prop up a preconceived notion. You are not examining the text for what it says, you are examining for what you can make it say.

  Unfortunately, you can't make it say what you want according to the understanding of Jews at the time. "Third heaven" meant exactly what the Jews of the 1st Century thought third heaven meant, not what JosephMalik of the 21st Century wants it to mean.

  And Revelation 11:12 means what it says, too.

  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

  My recommendation is that you stop insisting that your interpretation of an OT text supercede the direct statements of an NT text. In other words, in my opinion you would be better positioned allowing the plain statements of the NT text to affect your interpretation of the prophetic and symbolic comments in the OT instead of the other way around.

  Of course, that is just a suggestion. Ascension/descension is implicit in Paul's writings and in John's. It is also implicit in the account of Luke (or whoever wrote Acts of the Apostles).

  Acts 1:9 — And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

  It is up to you. If you want to keep asserting that the meanings of now more than a dozen Greek words mean something different than what they mean so you can make your dream come true in your head, be my guest. But, you have been cautioned—neither the Greek nor usages of terms in the period supports your assertion in the least and your interpretive OT symbolism can easily mean other things.

  AuldSoul
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  LittleToe

  Joseph:The question remains - where is Jesus now? (why does that sound so like "Where's Bob?"?)

  As AuldSoul draws to our attention, he ascended and is spoken of as descending. There are similar references to be found in Jacob's Ladder. Why is it so difficult to believe that this "location" is offworld or another dimension? I assume you don't believe he's walking around downtown Manhattan?

  In reference to seeds, how is it they change? A seed of a given genus is a seed of that genus. It doesn't miraculously change. In that context, how do you understand the verses that talk of them having been chosen before the world was? You're not going to go down the JW route of "God had limited foreknowledge", are you? (this part of the discussion is very much in the realms of the Calvinism/Arminian predestination debate, so it's ok to agree to disagree )

  I am interested in your view that Jesus (or whichever name or title we apply to him) is the creator and God of humankind. It's more Mormon than JW, but intriguingly polytheistic, nonetheless, for all your denials. I don't particularly have a problem with that, though it's not my personal belief.

  Do you by any chance link it in with the idea of the four living creatures having different heads, representing man, the birds, and the wild and domestic animals?