Was Jesus the first creation.

by ajie 221 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  LittleToe

  HR:

  Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph are good examples too. Good point!
  DDog: The irony being that no-one is stated as having been born second, etc., so it's not as if it's indicating that the was a physical birth by a spirit being. He is called the "only-begotten Son", and firstborn among many brethren (who incidentally are adopted). All of these are titles confering status.

  There's absolutely no indication that this involves some kind of creative act. Rather, as the one through whom all things were created, and for whom all things were created, it seems that that Jesus is being identified as the creator, rather than the created

  Ozzie:All too simple. About the only concept that takes some getting your head round is the "Trinity", as compared with the WTS where everything is convoluted and partial in it's rendering, if not outright obtuse.
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  gumby

  How bout John Chap1

  Not ONE THING was created without him. If Jesus had been created by his daddy, then the scripture would have to say..."apart from him, not one thing was created that was created".

  Gumby....who if'n was a believer.... would still have trouble with the trinity however. Ya just caint win.

  Gumby
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  Narkissos

  Asking the NT texts whether "Jesus" was created or uncreated is like asking Isaac Newton's position on quantum physics. Simply meaningless.

  The question only became meaningful in view of the 2nd-century developed Gnostic systems which drew a critical line between uncreated emanations of the absolute origin and later/lower creation by a secondary god or demiurge. From this new perspective the Saviour had to be uncreated, but to read that back into 1st-century texts is an anachronism. To a later question earlier texts are likely to give an ambiguous answer.
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  gumby

  Asking the NT texts whether "Jesus" was created or uncreated is like asking Isaac Newton's position on quantum physics.

  Newton........he started up with Nabisco and made cookies didn't he?...figs if i'm not mistaken.

  Gumby.....(.of the can never quite fit in class)
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  Deputy Dog

  LT

  There's absolutely no indication that this involves some kind of creative act.

  Or a "birth" at all for that matter.

  As you say:

  All of these are titles confering status.

  Amen

  D Dog
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  JosephMalik

  How bout John Chap1 Not ONE THING was created without him. If Jesus had been created by his daddy, then the scripture would have to say..."apart from him, not one thing was created that was created". To whoever: John is only discussing human creation, human life in this introduction of how the Word came to be Jesus our Savior. Mankind with all its tribes, races and other complex structure is the world to which this Word came and the world for which He was responsible. How the animals or anything else came into existence is not being discussed by John in these verses. This is also what Paul is doing in Colossians chapter 1. Paul is only discussing the human creation that will be redeemed by His blood over which our Lord has pre-eminence. 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, (rulers, kings) and that are in earth, (common man) visible (local) and invisible, (far away as in Rome) whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. All human entities in various stages of authority in this world. The successful sacrifice of this now firstborn human Jesus assures this hope for those now named by Paul who goes on to include the Church in this listing as well. Joseph
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  Deputy Dog

  LT This verse is interesting, I think the subject is actually the "invisible God". Meaning the "invisible God" is the firstborn. This is one of those places where the literal Greek (firstborn) gets us in trouble, maybe it should read: "the 'prototype or source' of all creation" What do you think Nark? D Dog
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  LittleToe

  I'm going to let slide for a moment that the verses make no such claim of limitation and ask you:

  If Jesus only, but exclusively, created all humans; how was it that "he" came into existance as a human himself?
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  Narkissos

  Joseph,

  15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, (rulers, kings) and that are in earth, (common man) visible (local) and invisible, (far away as in Rome) whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

  Does "invisible" (aoratos) in the first instance mean "far away as..." the Pleiades?

  DD,

  "Prototype" is very close to prototokos (NT) or protogônos (Philo); the idea of model, pattern is essential to the Wisdom tradition running from the Hebrew and Greek OT and subsuming into Philo's logos or Son theology, which in turn is very close to the NT. Consider for instance the thread running from Wisdom of Solomon 7:25f:

  For she (Wisdom) is a breath of the power of God,
  and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;
  therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her.
  For she is a reflection of eternal light,
  a spotless mirror of the working of God,
  and an image of his goodness.

  to Philo's On the Migration of Abraham, 63, 146:

  For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns.

  And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees -- Israel.

  to Hebrews 1:2f:

  in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word.
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  Deputy Dog

  LT You lost me bud.