Was Jesus the first creation. (page 21)

gumby

Therefore for all practical purposes there now is an (only immortal human) Jesus existing alongside the immortal God

I went back a long ways and never found Josephs idea of god, (not jesus), and what he believes his substance is..spirit or flesh. If it's the former, is human Jesus alongside his invisible spirit dad? How high up off the ground would you roughly say they are 100, 500, 2000, 6,000 feet in the air? I know that sounds smartassy, but I was just sittin here tryin to picture the whole scene in my head.

Gumfounded........*wonders why jesus picked flesh for a body that's made of dirt for earthly dwellers, instead of an airlike body for sky/cloud dwellers like himself*

JosephMalik

Heaven is not at once interchangable with God, covenant, Kingdom AuldSoul, But it is interchangable as already shown in this thread along with other uses. Your arguments do not agree with actual use in scripture. Here is heaven(s) and God used as interchangeable terms. Mt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Lu 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. So Heaven and God are interchangeable in scripture and this word is not restricted to a place outside earth’s atmosphere. It has many uses especially for Jews that include earth’s atmosphere. And it includes men of importance holding positions above common man, like government officials. Php2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Like in Col the word is used of human beings here as well as all such human beings will once again gain life in this Kingdom. Translation simply makes this a bit difficult. Or how about this one by Peter: 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Human beings that is what Peter is talking about here. And such humans will be replaced with new ones like this: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Like Colossians the word applies to human government in such texts not someplace in the universe just like the elements do not mean the planet but refers to common man dependent upon such heavens. Some would simply call this a description of Armageddon? But the reality is that words like heaven can and are used in such ways. Joseph

JosephMalik

LT,

Good to see you have a position but you still missed the point. How did you arrive at such conclusions scriptually? Where do we find verses that teach what you believe now?

Joseph

AuldSoul

Joseph,

That house's yard is very green.

That man's yard is very green.

That house must be the same as that man.

It is a logical fallacy. To misquote Inigo Montoya (Mandy Pitinkin, Princess Bride), "You keep using that [argument]. I do not think it means what you think it means."

AuldSoul

So Heaven and God are interchangeable in scripture

No they aren't. Not unless you believe that God, being on fire, will be dissolved. Maybe you don't know what "interchangable" means.

AuldSoul

Hellrider

The problem is, that if words like God, heaven, Kingdom etc etc are interchangeable (and I`m not saying they aren`t because I don`t know), then this have serious consequenses. This then means that whatever the word means in one particular passage, relies on the context. And I hate to point this out, but "context" isn`t an unproblematic word. Words like "context" and "prejudice" actually go hand in hand. When judging what a certain word means in a particular "context", then this notion of a context is always (!!!) very vague, and consists in itself of many, undefined notions, many of which are based purely on prejudice, many on beliefs. To sum it up like this: As with every litterary text, even the Bible:If you start reading it from the beginning, with every word you read, the sum of "meanings", or allround "meaning" of the text as a whole, multiplies by the thousands.

I don`t know if that made it any clearer.

LittleToe

You know the scriptures that I'm going to quote, but I'll humour you. I do hope you'll attempt to come back on topic:

I hope to be in heaven - Col.1:5
with my Lord and my God - John 20:28
face to face - 1Cor.13:12
since that's what he promised me - I'm afraid that one is personal...
Having the earnest of the Spirit - 2Cor.1:22; 5:5-8 (I hope you read that last one in the context of the thread)
God is my Father - Rom.8:14-16
too. - I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here...

Joseph wrote: Do you teach Christ was created?

LT wrote: Nope. To me he's the eternal Son of God, the uncreated creator of everything that was created. As for that part, isn't that exactly what we're discussing in this thread?

Slave1111

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

In simplicity, Jesus is the only begotten son of the Almighty God JAH. The First to be born out of Holy Spirit, and out of all that has been created.

Slave1111

AuldSoul

Welcome, Slave1111!

How do you make that understanding correspond with verse 16? Did Jesus create himself? Or was he not part of "all" things that were created?

Can't have it both ways.

AuldSoul

JosephMalik

AuldSoul,

The fallacy is in your interpretation. You will not accept what is clearly shown in scripture since this interferes with your preconceived views. You can not even provide a scriptural response. Your use of green was not scriptural but comical. The meaning of such words is dependent on use (context) so comparing verses does not help. But if you understood any of this you would not have used green as an example.

Joseph

Was Jesus the first creation.

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