Was Jesus the first creation. (page 22)

Slave1111

Welcome, Slave1111!
How do you make that understanding correspond with verse 16? Did Jesus create himself? Or was he not part of "all" things that were created?
Can't have it both ways.
AuldSoul

The slave is not greater than the Master. JAH is the originator of all in the heavens and in the earth. Even Jesus Christ. Please read carefully as you will be able to discern which verses pertain to JAH, and which pertain to Jesus, the son. The verses highlighted pertain to Jesus. Do you agree? He that seeks shall find. [The added text in brackets have been removed.] 13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all things by making peace through the blood on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.

Slave1111

AuldSoul

Joseph, your interpretation is based on an equation that contains a logical fallacy.

Logic 101: True or False

If C belongs to A and C belongs to B then A = B.

The answer is logically false. Why? Because A and B could each own C without being the same thing.

And when you say "such-and-such of X" you are attributing ownership. There is no logical conflict with stating that heaven is a location the kingdom belongs to and God is a person the kingdom belongs to.

There IS a logical conflict with the following "interchanged" verses:

Genesis 1:8 — And Heaven called the firmament God. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 2:4 — These [are] the generations of the gods and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD Heaven made the earth and the gods,

Genesis 14:22 — And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high Heaven, the possessor of god and earth,

1 Kings 8:27, 28 — But will Heaven indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the god and god of gods cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my Heaven, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:

Ezra 6:12 — And the Heaven that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter [and] to destroy this house of Heaven which [is] at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.

Psalm 53:2 — Heaven looked down from god upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek Heaven.

Psalm 80:14 — Return, we beseech thee, O Heaven of hosts: look down from god, and behold, and visit this vine;

Matthew 22:29-32 — Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of Heaven. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of Heaven in god. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by Heaven, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the Heaven of Isaac, and the Heaven of Jacob? God is not the Heaven of the dead, but of the living.

Joseph, are you seriously asserting these words are interchangable?

AuldSoul

So...you skipped right over verses 16 and 17 that state plainly Jesus created all things and that he was before all things. I was asking how you justify verse 16, you didn't even mention it...I understand if it makes you uncomfortable.

Just noticing.

AuldSoul

Yes, Slave1111, I agree that what you highlighted refers to Jesus. Of course, 17 is what establishes the subject "he" for verse 18, so that also applies to Jesus. And since 17 shows all things existing by means of "him" (Jesus) then he must have made all things.

AuldSoul

Narkissos

AuldSoul,

Leaving aside all seriousness in your desperate discussion with JosephMalik, I can't help noticing that your inversion of non-interchangeable terms produces very beautiful texts with a lot of added meaning -- which actually proves your point...

ajie

Joseph wont address verse 16 cause his argument wont hold up ,you cant create all things and be created, my ten year old boy can understand that, please explain in simple terms if this aint so in a way a ten year old can understand or cant you Jo.

gumby

you cant create all things and be created

So there's absolutely no possible way that the word "all" can be used of things other than christ himself?

An argument on this board was used in which the poster said "all the inhabited earth" meant local surroundings the Jews were aware of...or the "known world" The word "all" in this case was interpreted to mean it had boundries/limits. In the case of "all things" in Colosions 1:16 and John 1:3, it's never given the same liberty.

Gumby

Deputy Dog

Did anyone read this article?

http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/jwtrinity.htm

D Dog

AuldSoul

Gumby, there is no way to take what the Greek texts SAY and infer that "[other]" should be in the texts without adding a word Paul didn't use.

Mathew 6:24 — No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 12:45 — Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
2 Corinthians 8:8 — I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
Ephesians 3:5 — Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
1 Timothy 1:10 — For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The perfectly serviceable Greek word that Paul was very familiar with is heteros. You can see how it was used by Jesus and Paul. These are only a sampling on the 94 times it was used in the NT, but it always means the same thing. That one word would have cleared up the confusion (if there actually was confusion) about whether Jesus was part of the things created.

It is used as a speech part to literally differentiate between the current subject and a subject or subjects that are not the current subject. In this case, its absence makes clear that Jesus was not among the things created.

AuldSoul

all the inhabited earth

Gumster, I know it is tricky when you are looking at the English side of things, but the Greek word holos is what was used in Matthew 24:14. It also means "completely," so I am not sure why someone would change the meaning of it, either. But it is not the Greek word pas.

In Colossians 1:15-18 pas is used six times. Here is what pas means: 1) individually a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

Then we have verse 18 clarifying the sense in which Jesus is firstborn.

Colossians 1:18 — And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Hope this helps.

AuldSoul

Was Jesus the first creation.

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