by funkyderek 161 Replies latest jw friends
You sound like the old- fashioned naysayers who decried radio signals as demonic because they traveled thru the air with no apparent explanation!
There is one important difference. It is easy to see evidence of a radio signal. I have yet to see real evidence of psi. Thus I can't claim anything about psi, other than it's overwhelming 'something smells fishy' factor.
Peeps,
No one is really denying anyone's experiences - it's just that we disagree on the explanation for the experience.
bboysGF,
You really have some major misconceptions about science, scientific method, and scientific theory. I don't care what classes you took in HS or what the dictionary definitions are (which are usually laughable when it comes to scientific terms) - you are mistaken. There is probably no way for me to help you see what science really is all about if you don't have the desire to learn about it, but it would be more honest for you to just accept that you are in ignorant bliss of the process and leave it at that. Anti-intellectualism is the mindset that many of us came out of from the JW's and it irks me very much. You may see science as a fumbling in the dark, but I see it as the ONLY self correcting human endeaver for gaining knowledge ever created. If you have another system that works better, please let us all know - we are on the edge of our seats!
And I disagree that a medical doctor couldn't test a computer programer. The doctor and the programmer can agree on results that would be expected. The doctor could ask the programmer to make the screen say "hello world" 10 times. If the programmer could not perform such a simple task - then he did not possess that skill. That is a test anyone can do. You see, psi proponents are the ones helping in these experiments today - and they agree on what we should expect to see as results of an experiment.
So far we've had many tests of many different types of psi claims. We expect certain results - we don't need to know HOW they work to establish that they are there. If there are no expected results, then the external phenonmenon may not be real, but underlying psychological phenomenon may be at work. Actually, this has been replicated so many times that we are almost certain (nothing in science is 100%) that there are psychological factors which have been identified taking place. Why can't people accept that our brains can fool us? Our perception of reality is a really tricky thing. It doesn't mean a person is crazy - it just means that they are interpretting things differently.
I still think you are swell, though! :)
bboy,
You may be convinced of psi, any you may have observed it for all I know. What I do know for a fact is that any observation of psi has never been replicated in a lab. So really, this phenomenon has not even been shown to exist, much less a theory built for how it works. Gravity and evloution exist - it is repeated over and over again all over the Earth - under various conditions. There is no question. Why have scientists not been able to see what you are seeing? Could there be flaws in your observation/method? What are you seeing that no one has been able to replicate in a lab with experienced practicers of psi? Why is this phenomenon so difficult to test if it seems to be so easy to convince a layperson?
Julien,
Your beans cracked me up. Seriously, though, Julien makes a good point. This is exactly what psi claims sound like to a skeptical person. There is always some excuse why it doesn't work, or people get really excited about some amazing and some not-so-amazing coincidences, etc. People try to make it sound plausible with talk of quantum mechanics or radio waves and such.
All we ask for are some freaking conclusive results in psi's favor before people claim it is real! So far, it's like trying to prove that The Ether exists. We just know it must be there, but we haven't detected it yet. Well guess what - The Ether doesn't exist and judging from all of the scientific study in this field, neither do paranormal claims. I would imagine that if paranormal claims are true, it would be very simple to demonstrate them and repeat them. So far, this has not happened.
I apologize if I am coming accross as caustic. I'm really enjoying this discussion and I'm not trying to upset anyone. I think this is a fascinating subject. I'm afraid, though, that this issue may never be fully resolved to everyone's satisfaction.
rem, hoping everyone a happy weekend! :)
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
..........Bertrand Russell
observation of psi has never been replicated in a lab
Then why did the US government spend over 20 million on Stargate at fort meade maryland if its a laughable superstition? Dont you think they would have tested to see if this stuff works before setting aside entire bunkers?
Jimmy carter admited a remote viewer located a downed plane when all of their technology could not. Is he dellusional and crazy? Did the woman who found the plane down it herself and therefore know where to find it?
Not only are we all dellusional, so is the US government for sponsoring what is obvious fakery and slight of hand.
-Dan
I don't care what classes you took in HS or what the dictionary definitions are (which are usually laughable when it comes to scientific terms) - you are mistaken.
If i can't rely on the dictionary to tell me what words mean i'm screwed. But i like how you just disregard an authoroty that doesn't agree with your opinion of it.
There is probably no way for me to help you see what science really is all about if you don't have the desire to learn about it, but it would be more honest for you to just accept that you are in ignorant bliss of the process and leave it at that.
I used to beleive that science was complete truth and infabale until i realised it's all theory based and they constantly change their minds on their discoveries. I am in no way ignorant of science but i'm not going to go into it anymore. you beleive science is one thing i beleive it's another. Deal with it.
Anti-intellectualism is the mindset that many of us came out of from the JW's and it irks me very much.
I have never been a jehovas witness so i know little of their or your mindset regarding this. I'm sorry their mindset irks you though.
You may see science as a fumbling in the dark,
but I see it as the ONLY self correcting human endeaver for gaining knowledge ever created. If you have another system that works better, please let us all know - we are on the edge of our seats!
It is arrogant to assume that science has accounted for all phenomena, that there is no room for anything new. If the history of scientific discoveries has taught us anything, it is that we constantly discover new things. It was once thought impossible to slow down light to 30 miles per hour, yet this was done in a lab. It was once assumed that as computers got more and more powerful, they would become larger and larger. There is the famouse example of a scientists who calculated that as the human species grew within cities, the amount of manure from horses would become umanaganable. This was of course because he did not forsee the invention and wide use of automobiles. In science it is important to remain humble and relaize that there is much to be discovered, especially about the mysteries of the human brain and it's capabilities.
I never stated that science hasn't done great things.I am very appreciative of it but i don't think it is the end all of knowledge.
I still cannot comprehend how my drawing a picture that i have NEVER seen that someone has picked for me how can my brain be fooling me?!?!! waht i just THINK i see myslef drawing the EXACT picture? Really the drawing doesn't exhist. Sorry..i can't see it. And every shred of evidence i give drawing next to pictures or whatever won't convince you. You will always say that someone somehow gave me clues or i peeked or some other lame disproving method. There no way to satisfy you. There'll always be some excuse as to why it worked this time or that time. Again i can't ever prove to you it works and you can't ever prove to me it doesn't. But i have evidence and you have nothing except your sceptesism.
It is arrogant to assume that science has accounted for all phenomena, that there is no room for anything new.
Science is not a body of knowledge. It is a methodology to obtain knowledge. In fact, is the only project ever devised by mankind that has increased our understanding of the natural world to any significant degree. Science is the sole reason humans in the western world today live to be 80 years old, and not 20-22 years old as was the standard in all parts of this world from the stone age until the 1600s. That is a record unsurpassed by any and all other systems of inquiry or belief ever devised by mankind.
So, when someone comes along, and claims that based on their subjective experiences, their ideas of what they have personally experienced and nothing else, everybody else should totally reject everything that has been scientifically verifiable over the last century or so, I think the only sane course is to be very skeptical.
Those who express anti-scientific sentiments in this and other supernaturalist/newagist threads have one thing in common: a total lack of knowledge about science, and no education about nature.
I know supernaturalism very well. I lived in a supernaturalist fantasy until I was 25. Perhaps you supernaturalists should try to learn a little bit about science, the only knowledge-gathering system on this planet that actually has ever improved life for the average human?
Answer this question: If psychic powers work like science does, how come we communicate on a messageboard built on hard science, instead of simply using the built-in "psychic powers" that supernaturalists assert we have?
How come supernaturalists always -- always -- fail or back out of real tests?
The answers are obvious.
Arthur C. Clarke once said that magic is either non-existanct or very ineffective, or it would have played a greater role in human history.
I agree with him there.
However, nothing has played a greater role in human history than gullibility. People want to believe the universe is easy to make sense of, that it's fair and that it will be good to us for all eternity. We are born that way. Skepticism is, like logical thought, an acquired quality. We are born with gullibility and belief, which is the reason humanity spent 500,000 years or more in the jungle or bushes, fantasizing about magical powers, before discovering the one way out. The single way out is what we call science.
Of course, the tremendous progress of science has made it possible for some ahistorical, ignorant people to fantasize about a past that never was, and knowledge that isn't, while still sustaining their lives thanks to science.
That is how you spell irony: Without science, all the anti-science people would probably be dead already.
- Jan
--
"Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
bboynekosgirlfriend,
I still cannot comprehend how my drawing a picture that i have NEVER seen that someone has picked for me how can my brain be fooling me?!?!! waht i just THINK i see myslef drawing the EXACT picture? Really the drawing doesn't exhist. Sorry..i can't see it. And every shred of evidence i give drawing next to pictures or whatever won't convince you.
What kind of a hypocrite are you? Derek devised a test. You self-proclained psychics failed, or came up silly excuses to not partake. We only have your words for your assertions you have seen anything outside your own head.
Participate in a real test, and don't chicken out.
When you consistently chicken out with all sorts of stupid excuses, it's extreme dishonesty to assert that skeptics have been given any evidence whatsoever.
What we have is your word for it, and you're just an anonymous person behind an anonymous username on this board. Should we believe that the whole universe behaves in a totally absurd way because you say so? How many hundred people have claimed to see Elvis? Get real!
The only rational conclusion is that you have a problem that should be discussed with your psychiatrist and nobody else.
Get evidence on the table! You had your chance. You chickened out. Wanna try again? Go ahead. Put up or shut up.
- Jan
--
"Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
I can't wait for scientists to come up with a test for determining if you love your mom.
I do not discount that its a great thing, and I love my pentium 4. My point is that you can't just assume that if something falls outside your KNOWN (experience) understanding of science, the current understanding of how the universe works (which constantly changes) that it must be impossible.
You must agree that you cannot go into a scientific test with a predetermined conclusion. Like conducting a scientific test to prove once and for all that the moon is made of cheese. And as the results come back and it is shown that it is mostly made of rock, and no dairy products, the scientisit assumes the results must be tainted and there must be trickery involved, because he is SURE that the moon is made of cheese.
let's say I assume the earth is flat. You say, Dan, we have photographs from space that show it is round. And I respond, Well, those photographs are unreliable and probably doctored. This is what i see when people are confronted by results of experiments done with remote viewing. oh those drawings are faked, oh the subject was given a subliminal clue as to what it was, oh he peeked, etc etc.
At one point you have to say, hmm..what if this is true, what are the implications if that sketch really came without any visible and known sensory input, how does this affect humanity.
Again, the US government beleived in it enough to harbor a large group of TRAINED remote viewers (yes, they actually trained people, just as they train a pilot to fly an F-16) for many years, only to disband it when the republicans came to power and the fall of the iron curtain. There is so much ridicule involved in the field it is usually kept under wraps.
What if we were discussing this in 1994 or so, and i claimed that the CIA had a project called stargate involving espionage data from remote viewers. Youd probably call me crazy. But they did it. Who knows if they are still doing it? The only government agency to publicly admit to using remote viewers is the CIA. The military might still be using them, as may the FBI and other agencies.
I'm sorry, but the only reason the CIA would continue to fund a project that faced year to year approval for over 10 years is that they were getting damned good results. You try facing a budget commitee and getting funding for a psychic project without some hard data that the results are far beyond chance.
There have been many books released by the participants of Stargate. So far, the CIA and US Goverment have not tried to sue the writer, or denied what is written there. The former director of Stargate lives right here in Maryland, i am coresponding with him by email and hopefully I might convince him to post a little somethin somethin.
And think about this, what if it does work, what if it is proven 100% conclusivley that these people are getting sensory input beyond what we know humans are capable of.
Will this make your cereal taste runny in the morning? Will you lose your job? Will all the religions on earth crumble? Would sciencetists be executed? No, it wouldnt change much of anything really. It would probably go the way of hypnotism, a curious and poorly understood ability of the human mind. The fact is the ability as far as I have seen is relativley weak. Reading documents is next to impossible, besides large stylized letters such as those found in logos. Your not reading peoples exact thoughts or anything quite like that. Your arent causing peoples hearts to stop.
In view of the light reprucssions on the world and world affairs, i fail to see why there is so much reisstance to the idea that it might be possible, that the thousands who have experienced psychic phenomena like LDH are not dellusional, anti-intellectual or crazy.
have you ever seen the japanese film akira? Now if people had abilities like that there would be something to worry about :)
-Dan
The only rational conclusion is that you have a problem that should be discussed with your psychiatrist and nobody else.
Please stop hurling insults, this does not aid your position. It has already been stated on this board that when people start relying on personal attacks and such inttelctual phrases as 'shut up' that they are not really participating in an intillgent discussion of a controversial subject.
Personal attacks gain your position nothing, if I were to place one of your quotes here and then go, 'man your a doofus, you must have the IQ of a sea cucumber etc etc..' This is just an attack and it's very immature.
its really amounts to saying 'Your wrong because your dumb' or 'its wrong because it falls outside my comprehension'
-Dan
bboy and his friend,
You are wrong on many counts, some of which have been covered. One of you said that we don't know how gravity works. Of course we do and with great precision. If not, we could not put up satelittes and know their orbit ahead of time. Likewise, we could not predict the orbit of the planets or the speed of descent through the atmospher. All of the these are known.
The disclaimer about not being able to measure something (psychic ability) unless you have it is just hog wash. I don't have to be a lightning bolt to measure it. I don't have to be a great swimmer to determine who won a race. Measurement and the ability being measured are independent.
I also asked for a test and was trying to determine a fair, objective way to do this. My pursuit of this has been conveniently dropped from discussion.
I can't wait for scientists to come up with a test for determining if you love your mom.
I am quite sure that by monitoring brain active as well as levels of various chemicals and hormones in your bloodstream scientists could easily tell if you love your mom.
Some of the people here are of the mistaken notion that there are a lot of these mysterious "unfigureoutables" that science just can't get a handle on, such as the above : love or other emotions. Someone else mentioned nonverbal communication (note: why doesn't this happen in email or message boards??? Answer: because you can't see the other person's face or body language!!).. just because most of us have no idea how these things work doesn't mean that no one has figured it out or is trying to figure it out.
