by funkyderek 161 Replies latest jw friends
BobsGirl,
Until that cheap stunt on Derek, you might have had some credibility. Now it's obvious you'll use fraud to support your claims to supernatural abilities. What is it to you? a publicity stunt?
Those who doubt me: Move your mouse cursor over the email icon on Derek's profile. What do you see?
- Jan
--
"People are apprehensive when they meet me. They think I'm going to eat
them. But underneath it all, I'm quite shy." - Freddie Mercury
Concering our Brain and Forgetting>
I don't know about you guys but I can't remember anything I've forgotten.
Like Houdinne, Randi has offered a large prize, one million dollars, for anyone who can prove they have psychic powers. After several years, no one has been able to prove it.
Was houdini a scientist? Is James Randi? They are both public entertainers, stage magicians. Offering a large prize to anyone who can rpove psychic abilities is a old publicity trick. James Randi has a very long list of rules to ensure he never has to pay out the million, in addition he is sole judge and jury. Like houdini, james randi is only out to get cheap publicity for himself.
-Dan
bboy,
Was houdini a scientist? Is James Randi? They are both public entertainers, stage magicians.
Exactly. And they recognize that many of their rogue collegues try to pass off tivoli tricks as real magic, and they use this to lure money from people. People like Houdini, Randi and Copperfield don't pretend there is anything but tricks. It's entertainment. Anything wrong with entertainment?
Randi is also a skeptic and well read in science and history, and is, like everyone else, free to fight for what he thinks is important in society. He does, like me, think that science is what keeps our civilization today, and that fraudsters and supernaturalists are undermining it.
Offering a large prize to anyone who can rpove psychic abilities is a old publicity trick.It's also called "put your money where your mouth is." Randi obtains publicity for his skepticism project. How can anything be wrong with that?
James Randi has a very long list of rules to ensure he never has to pay out the million, in addition he is sole judge and jury.You have a long history of not backing up your assertions here, bboy. This is just another of your unfounded claims.
Look at http://www.randi.org/research/index.html
Explain to us what exactly, is unfair about the rules. We are waiting.
But of course, like all other challenges you are met with, you will probably find a good excuse not to answer this one too.
Like houdini, james randi is only out to get cheap publicity for himself.That's a cheap ad hominem that can just as well backfire on yourself and your little magic girl fraudster.
- Jan
--
"People are apprehensive when they meet me. They think I'm going to eat
them. But underneath it all, I'm quite shy." - Freddie Mercury
An actual deposit of money in that amount now covers Randi’s funds. Up until two years ago, the $1,000,000 prize was backed by promissory notes of $1,000 or more from individuals who were willing to put their money where Randi’s mouth was. I was one of those supporters for several years, and had $2,000 pledged to the challenge. Each year I had to send in a new, dated agreement The largest single supporter was Penn Gillette (of Penn and Teller) who put up $90,000.
Yes, it is true that Randi (and Houdini) are not scientists. They are slight-of-hand artists who have made their living fooling people on stage. They know what to look for when it comes to trickery – be it intentional or honest-hearted belief on the part of someone that really thinks they have a special power. But never once did either of them claim that their powers came from “beyond.”
Uri Geller will bend a key; Randi will bend a key. Geller claims his bending is done by psychic means. Randi admits that he tricked you and deceived the eye. He also says that if Geller is doing it with supernatural power, he is doing it the hard way.
Hey Jan,
Before you go waxing all vitriolic on a girl, double check the screen name. If Derek hadn't busted me, the plan was to bust myself. I have NEVER made claims to have supernatural abilities. You are confusing me with another proud lover :I.
:Until that cheap stunt on Derek, you might have had some credibility. Now it's obvious you'll use fraud to support your claims to supernatural abilities. What is it to you? a publicity stunt?
BobsGirl
Yes, it is true that Randi (and Houdini) are not scientists. They are slight-of-hand artists who have made their living fooling people on stage.
That's my point, they aren't exactly credible themselves.
.. http://www.psych.cornell.edu/dbem/does_psi_exist.html
Try that link for a good analaysis of psi studies doen in the early 90's
and as for what we know fo reality and the nature of the universe, quantum physics states some pretty crazy, 'extraordinary claims'. For example I posted before about 'spooky action at a distance'
Here is a summary of that effect of quantum physics:
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One of the apparent paradoxes of QM is non-locality, which suggests that everything in the universe comprises one interconnected whole in which all parts communicate with each other at infinite speeds. Non-locality is the ostensible transfer of information at superluminal (faster than light) speeds, something that Einstein's theory of relativity, and countless experiments, tell us is impossible.
As Amit Goswami put it, "...it is logical to conclude that psychic phenomenon, such as distant viewing and out-of-body experiences, are examples of the nonlocal operation of consciousness. ...Quantum mechanics undergirds such a theory by providing crucial support for the case of nonlocality of consciousness."
As an example of superluminal communication I will describe an experiment involving what is called quantum entanglement, in which pairs of particles are correlated even though they are separated from each other. Certain subatomic particles can produce pairs of photons when they decay. These photons race away from each other at the speed of light and have certain restrictions with regard to their properties. If the parent particle had zero angular momentum (rotational energy), the resulting two photon system must also have zero angular momentum, otherwise spin
If photon one has spin up in the x-axis then photon two must have spin down in its' x-axis. In this sense the photons are entangled because the measurement of spin in one photon means that the other photon must have the opposite spin in the same axis of rotation. This might not seem too unusual but the predominant interpretation of QM, the Copenhagen interpretation, tells us that at the quantum level nothing is real unless you look at it (bounce radiation off it). Until then quantum systems exist only as a wave of probability, called a wave function, that collapses into reality during measurement and then disperses again when you're done looking at it. Another way to look at this is that the spin of the particle is a superposition (a mixture) of all possible spins (up and down in this case) and when an observation takes place one particular spin becomes real. The probability of each spin depends on its wave function. ( It is this inherent probabilistic nature of QM that bothered Einstein so greatly, causing him to remark "God does not play dice.") So what we have in this experiment are twin state photons both consisting of spin up and spin down at the same time. At the instant of measurement the wave function for the two photon system collapses, one photon becoming spin up and the other spin down. In order for each to have an opposite spin it appears that an instantaneous communication occurs between them, what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance."
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It would be absurd to think that two particles, seperated by light years can somehow still behave as if they are connected. This is crazy, how can they possibly be connected with no visible or explainable means?
Or for example, it has been shown that light is both a particle and a wave. This is also an absurd idea but it was been demonstrated. If light is a wave, then what is it 'waving?' Wtaer waves need water, sound waves need air, etc. What does light need to wave? Apparantly nothing, at least nothing we can observe. To complicate matter light can be bent by gravity, suggesting that the universe, our space-time, is wrapped around 'something.'
I can understand the skeptics viewpoint, I cant beleive in bigfoot until I see him face to face, or ghosts until one floats across my living room. But I wont say 'No, they cant possibly exsist. Theres just no way.' The exsistence of gorillas was ridiculed for a long time until poeple brought back live specimens and skeletons. There is an unfortunatley large amount of arrogance in science that seems to to say' we know all there is to know' and will not accept new ideas easily. Evolution was not readily accepted, not even dinosaurs.
-Dan
bboy,
If you wanted to set up a chemistry experiement you would consult a chemist. If you wanted to study the presence of deception you would consult a magician. Houdinni's work was of enough scientific merit to be published in Scientific American, a very prestigious journal. I have seen the controlled studies conducted by Randi on video tape, and they are of good scientific quality. A scientist without the training in trickery can be as easily fooled as any layman. A magician with an understanding of the scientific method is the most qualified to conduct this research.
I offered an objective bet to you, and then you tell me your girl friend won't do it because it will make her very anxious. It sounds like a cop out to me.
I offered an objective bet to you, and then you tell me your girl friend won't do it because it will make her very anxious. It sounds like a cop out to me.
shes right here posting with us, talk to her about it.
-Dan
It might interest some of you to know that Sony corporation of Japan funded remote viewing experiments for years:
Game over for sony corporation
by D. Trull
Enigma Editor
[email protected]
"As the 21st century draws nearer, we can see that society's materialistic values, fostered in many respects by modern science and technology, have become outdated and unworthy. It is clear that we have come to another turning point in history and science. What we require to meet the challenges of these unpredictable and confusing times is a new paradigm to guide a new age. I believe that the key to this new paradigm lies in the research of biological, mental, and spiritual phenomena such as "Qi" and other psychic powers that have been overlooked by modern scientists.... I think that the results of my research could help bring about a significant revolution that might force our materialistic society to turn around, and concurrently reform the ways of modern science and technology."
--Sony ESPER Laboratory director Yoichiro Sako, speaking at the 16th Annual Meeting of the Society for Scientific Exploration (hosted by the University of Nevada in Las Vegas, June 1997).
The captivatingly improbable story bears the distinct flavor of an urban legend: a giant global corporation quietly conducts intensive research into ESP and paranormal abilities, while keeping its efforts heavily shrouded in secrecy. But this is no myth. The covert challenger of the unknown in this scenario is the Sony Corporation, which funded a seven-year project exploring psychic phenomena. And just to make it a perfect parable of conspiratorial folly in the techno-industrial complex, Sony claims to have proven that ESP exists, yet they shut down the psychic studies program... because they couldn't figure out a way to make a buck off it.
For years it has been reported that Sony was involved in some sort of psychic research, but the details have been few and poorly corroborated. The company plainly took deliberate measures to maintain low-key status for this most unconventional R&D unit, so that the average consumer would have no idea what strangeness might be unfolding at the home of the Discman and the PlayStation. Although more specifics are surfacing now that the program has ended, the full scope and substance of Sony's adventures in ESP remains unknown.
The founder and former director of the Sony psi labs is researcher Yoichiro Sako. With a background in mathematics and computer science, Sako first worked in a variety of multimedia and artificial intelligence departments at Sony. After establishing himself at the company, Sako began to pursue a personal interest in paranormal matters from within the bureaucratic corporate structure, like Sony's answer to Fox Mulder.
In 1990, Sony allowed Sako to head up a study on scientific evidence for the biological energy known as qi, which is an integral part of many Eastern spiritual beliefs. Sako's proposal might never have been approved were it not for the support of Sony co-founder Masaru Ibuka, who is a firm believer in the principles of qi energy. The following year Sako was granted his own laboratory devoted to paranormal investigations, which was code-named ESPER (Extrasensory Perception and Excitation Research). Staffed with a small team of five researchers, Sako's program covered a wide range of phenomena, including telepathy, remote viewing, synchronicity, the practice of qi gong, the nature of consciousness, and undoubtedly much, much more.
But Sony made no announcements of its entry into a bold new field of research, and remained virtually silent on the subject of ESPER through the first several years of its existence. The company's first public acknowledgement of Sako's psi lab came in 1995, in the aftermath of the nerve gas attacks in Japan's subways. Public anxieties over the occult activities of the Aum Shinri Kyo terrorist organization forced Sony to speak out on its rumored dabblings in the supernatural.
"Sako's main interest is in pushing on the boundaries and definitions that shackle traditional science," Sony executive Mika Ishida told Wired magazine in 1996. "There might be a new type of communication system out there, a system that transmits data through mediums we've never before considered. We don't know, but we're trying to find out."
Sony's efforts to put a positive spin on ESPER were fairly successful, with the Japanese media stirring up a sensational wave of interest in the corporation's psychic laboratory, and the public responding mostly favorably. But the program also drew its share of condemnations, and among the harshest critics were dismayed executives and employees at Sony itself.
ESPER continued operations for several more years under extensive confidentiality, until Sony announced in July 1998 that the laboratory had been closed down. Only then did Sony make an official statement on the findings of the program. Quite casually and without pomp or circumstance, Sony issued the claim that its psi labs had verified the existence of psychic abilities. But there was one little problem: the company couldn't come up with any way to turn this incredible breakthrough into something marketable.
"We found out experimentally that yes, ESP exists, but that any practical application of this knowledge is not likely in the foreseeable future," Sony spokesman Masanobu Sakaguchi said in the South China Morning Post.
It seems almost like a parody of short-sighted corporate bloodthirst for profits, but there may be more to the story than that. Perhaps not coincidentally, Masaru Ibuka, the Sony founding father who blessed the founding of ESPER, died in late 1997. Some reports have speculated that Sony executives may have gladly brushed away the eccentric department once its powerful patron was out of the picture.
And what of Sony's "proof" that ESP is real? Details have emerged on two allegedly conclusive experiments that Sako's laboratory performed. One was a test of the remote-viewing type. Sako says that he would draw pictures or write words on a small square of paper, which he folded and tightly crumpled up. Then he would let test subjects make physical contact with the wadded paper, either placing it between their fingers or, bizarrely, sticking it into their ear. The subjects concentrated and drew or wrote down what they believed they could "see" on the concealed paper.
Over the course of 35 trials, Sako claims that the rate of "recognition" was an unbelievable 97.1 percent. The definition of the term "recognition" in the test is not certain, but there was apparently some degree of allowance for drawings that were judged as "close" to matching the target. Sako describes 18 of the test responses as perfect matches, some of which can be seen in the chart on this page.
How could such amazingly accurate matches be possible if not by means of ESP? It may be instructive to note that the test subjects' success rate plummeted when the wadded-up target images were placed inside an envelope. Some might call this evidence of psychic powers embedded in the tactile sense; others would call it evidence of cheating. In 1996, James Randi discredited a "psychic" Japanese girl who divined what was written on tiny pieces of folded paper. She used skillful sleight of hand to peek at the targets and trick her experimenters. It could be that Sako was similarly duped.
Another test at Sony's psi labs studied the mystical healing arts of qi gong. A qi gong practitioner would attempt to project qi energy into one of two side-by-side glasses of water. Then a second qi gong expert would attempt to determine which glass of water contained the imbued energy. Over an unspecified number of trials, the subjects reportedly named the correct glass at a rate of 70 percent. This is a statistically significant result. But without further documentation of the experiment protocol and the controls followed, it is impossible to declare it proof of a supernatural event.
Its vaunted evidence of ESP may be lacking, but the the fact that a Sony psychic center actually existed is a highly weird true phenomenon in its own right. The full story behind the ESPER lab remains to be told, and it may hold some further big surprises. Who knows, maybe the lab's shutdown is all an insidious ploy of misdirection, and Sony will one day unveil a portable Psychman mind-reading device, or a TV set equipped with telepathic remote control.
Sources: Fortean Times #115 ("Closing the Dream Factory," Patrick Huyghe); The Randi Hotline e-mail newsletter, July 8, 1998; Wired magazine, September 1996.
© Copyright 1998 ParaScope, Inc.
