Thank you sKally for your interesting observations. I apologize if my remarks seemed to justify a class of people who may have been a source of grief to you personally. Since I have experience with “all types” of people, both within Jehovah’s Witnesses and on the “outside,” I know that you can’t please everyone all the time no matter how hard you try. Probably, the best you can hope for is to demonstrate an awareness towards diverse arguments and somehow find a middle ground. That isn’t always easy as you probably know. So I will agree that there are JW’s who may derive personal satisfaction from being oppressive and unkind in the name of Jehovah and I likewise find it hard to justify such conduct under the guise of misdirected zeal or ignorance. I don't, nevertheless, include my parents to be among them. However, even with regard to these "objectionable people," I still want to seek to recover what “was lost” with honest convincing arguments. This may require looking for the “good” in JW’s and not necessarily the “bad.” In this regard, I am reminded of the Parable of the Prodigal Son and his Older Brother. Though the older brother did have very good reasons for criticizing both his father and his brother, I am still left with a feeling of sadness, wishing that the older brother could just “get over it,” so to speak. How do you feel about the older brother and what do you suppose Jesus’ message to us through that parable was? Thanks again for your remarks. (Luke 15:32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.)
JW Children Lie in Custody Cases
by compound complex 290 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JWdaughter
Eduardo may still be caught up in the WT deceptions-I believe he is. I don't think he is quite to kool aid level, but he is definitely using his lawyer skills to further their interests in this case. Considering that he KNOWS he had a 'liberal' JW upbringing, he must then realize that it was an anomoly. He also calls his friends 'normal' which impllies that he knew that even being a liberally brought up JW that he was not a 'normal' kid. Why does he keep saying that there is a disconnect between our experiences as JWs and reality? He knows he had a easier reality than most JW kids! He was NOT normal and yet considers himself to have been brought up in a liberal JW household. Most JWs aren't anything like liberal! I don't know his complete connection to the WT, but he feels defensive of it at the same time he does not seem to be IN it, really. He doesn't defend everything the org. does, but these ARE JWs. The society is the result of a lawyer and they love to play with words. Is is any wonder that many JWs (after leaving) become interested in law and legal professions? I know of several across the internet and a couple in real life. This is not surprising. I am curious how he came to leave the org. and become a lawyer. He is a nice looking guy and has some interesting stuff to say in some instances. I wish he wasn't so intent on justifying what is clearly the WT manipulation of children and families.
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pilgrim searcher
Thanks Junction-Guy for your agreement. I am not trying to "justify" the conduct of JW's in seeking to "orient" their children with regard to what their "legal attitude" towards life "should" be. However, I think I have to admit that if my child were going to testify about me or our family in court, I would like to clear up any "possible" misunderstandings he may have. I would not want my child to tell the court I sometimes "kiss" his belly when we are "wrestling" or give him or her “whisker rubs” because that could be "misunderstood." Though that illustration is not precise, it is useful to describe the concern a JW parent would have regarding what their child's testimony might be. Look at what is at stake? Also, the child, who may not really know what is going on, probably just wants to please his or her parents. So the briefing is designed to "walk the line" and give the child the information needed to be "pleasing" to both Jehovah and parent alike. In their minds, it is a "win win" situation. I don't say that this is right? I just referred to the "theocratic warfare" policy to explain why I, personally, might have done the same thing without feeling that I was being "bad or deceitful." Eduardo may likewise make the same justifications without any feelings of shame or guilt. Though we may not agree with him, we should at least acknowledge whether we personally could do the same things under similar circumstances. Once we do that, then we can start assessing the type arguments needed to put such “erroneous” thinking into proper perspective. That is why I quoted Jesus’ experience. Did Jesus lie for a greater good? Do JW children likewise lie for a greater good? If JW’s think that Jesus “lied” but “without sin” then why shouldn’t they do the same, in His name? Thanks again for your remarks.
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pilgrim searcher
Note: I am learning to be able to lengthen my submissions but I still haven't studied how to better format them. This post is to anyone in general who may be interested in this topic. In this discussion, it is my objective to make, what I believe to be, "honest" acknowledgements as a basis for moving an argument forward in a productive manner. If a person is trying to convince someone of the sincerity of one’s cause, they must, in my opinion, show that they are honestly aware of all the contingencies to the extent possible. For instance, when I read prejudicial statements that I know are “technically” wrong but nevertheless popular, I no longer pay much attention to the details. For me, it becomes “political rhetoric” and not necessarily truthful. This is what the “theocratic warfare” ploy is all about. It covers over unacceptable conduct with a “god like” mantel. Its true success is based upon a “singing to the choir” tactic. Those who agree with you will continue to agree and those who don’t will turn you off. In my opinion, that is exactly what the Watchtower Society has always done. When they “condemn” often it is without a firm basis and so the condemee won’t pay any attention. However, the message has really been sent to masses of condemors as an example of courageous and forthright behavior that they should emulate. So the condemnation need not be factually based because the audience isn’t really interested in facts. They only want to have their values reinforced whether “right or wrong.” I want to defend Eduardo’s goodness in order for him to, at least, listen to my criticisms. I do not want to automatically raise his JW “defensive shields.” Once the shields are up, you may as well stop “wasting your breath.” To defend a person’s “good appearances” is not to condone their alleged “bad behavior.” However, because the “point of the argument” is to get a person to “reconsider their behavior” and its relevance, honesty is necessary whether it fits all agendas or not. My challenge to Eduardo is whether he is “being honest” or just singing to the choir in his dealings with this group. My challenge to everyone else is to reconsider your motives in this discussion. Then write your motive or objective as the first line of your argument. In that way, the reader can tell up front whether they want to read the rest of the discussion. If the WT did that, wouldn’t that save a lot of time and trouble? This practice would also give the reader some ‘key words” to focus in on as a basis for grading the effectiveness of the material. As an example, in this discussion, my motive is to convince the audience that honesty, even if it hurts, is the best policy -- as a secondary objective, don’t my arguments sound cleaver and am I not smart. I don’t expect you to agree with all my objectives but if you, at least agree with one of them, then I will “ fill in the blanks for myself” on the rest. Thanks for listening (reading) if you have gotten this far. PS
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compound complex
Dear Pilgrim Searcher,
Welcome to this discussion. When I began this thread, I did not anticipate what you have recently come upon. At the very outset, I recognized something amiss in the Society's portrayal of our childrens' true interests - the Kingdom or Hobbies, etc.? - and naturally was interested in JWD opinion. Some responded with anger and indignation, and rightly so. Submitted too were both sides of legal proceedings, including an insight into the WT's motivation. Insults aplenty also. Midway through I interjected a plea for civility and decency per forum regs and the decorum we learned as JWs (despite how we may feel about dub mores now). Thank you, PS, for your declaration of providing a fair and honest approach to a vital and serious issue. Regardless of how we may feel personally about what the WT has done to us, we don't need to stoop to the gutter level displayed by the GB some quarter century ago.
Thank you,
CoCo
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sf
PS,
Hello again.
I appreciate your reply. And it was going along pretty good until this:
How do you feel about the older brother and what do you suppose Jesus’ message to us through that parable was? Thanks again for your remarks. (Luke 15:32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.)
You really don't want me to answer this. I assure you, you will regret it. So I will just say that riddles in a book do not impress me. Nor do they cause me any type of inner spiritual "uplifting". I get that by doing what comes natural. Not what is written in some book as a riddle.
There is nothing good, altruistic or nurturing about this organization and it's DEADLY, HATE-FILLED, DESTRUCTIVE-TO-FAMILIES policies.
There is nothing good about adults condoning, preaching, recruiting others into this hell hole. I have very strong feelings and firm thoughts on these types of adults. The vvery type of adults who willing sign their innocent young childrens death warrants without doing thorough research and investigation into the Watchtowers LETHAL NO-BLOOD POLICY.
POLICY. You are most certainly aware of the definition of this word. When any organization has policies, you investigate and educate yourself FIRST, before "joining", do you not?
Same must be done with a RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION that writes and enforces such a deadly POLICY as "no transfusions".
I implore you to read the Dec. 2005 Journal of Church and State essay by Kerry Louderback-Wood entitled "Jehovah's Witnesses, Blood Transfusions, and the Tort of Misrepresentation" [ http://www.ajwrb.org/whatsnew/church_state.shtml ]
The disfellowshipping {shunning} POLICY is HATE-FILLED and HATE-FULL.
The longer the WATCHTOWER BOOK PRINTING/ PUBLISHING CORPORATION, OPERATED BY "THE FAITHFUL/ DISCREET/ SLAVE {GOVERNING BODY}" AS 'JEHOVAH'S MOUTHPIECE HERE ON EARTH' and MASKED AS "THE ONE TRUE RELIGION HERE ON EARTH", continues and is ALLOWED to stay in existance by JWS THAT STILL STAY IN and by those such as yourself and EDUARDO, with LETHAL POLICIES IN PLACE and preached to unsuspecting householders covertly-like...
the odds are that I will be right behind you telling the unsuspecting just how suspect "ALL THINGS AND PEOPLE OF WATCHOWER" truth-fully ARE.
Good day and take good good care.
sKally
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pilgrim searcher
Thanks for your remarks and observations again sf. I wish I knew how to “format” my material like yours. It sure looks good and it is a good way to get a point across.
As far as responding to your remarks, I will be brief. I did not know that quoting the Bible would be unacceptable to anyone. I will be more careful in the future. However, your apparent stand on not answering “riddles” was not very helpful either because “riddles” often have a moral basis that can effectively reconciles problems. I don’t think riddles should be dismissed out of hand. In an effort to make this riddle more relevant, I will rephrase the material like this. Depending upon whom you are interested in pleasing, what do you think of a person who lets their “feelings” outweigh their “common sense?” I think that is what the “older brother” is doing. He is mad and in that frame of mind he wants to hurt his younger brother because he, no doubt, does not realize how much the younger brother has already been hurt and the good lessons the younger brother has learned or may yet learn from the experience. Within that context, I think that the older brother is the one to be pitied even though he appears to be the “good guy.”
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sf
With due respect PS, I'm only interested in grinding the gears of the printing machines that continue to spew out lethal and destructive Watchtower policies.
I'm not interestdd in biblical riddles and such.
What are your thoughts AND feelings on theses deadly policies based on misrepresented facts?
You simply did not address much of my post above. Please do so or you may decline. Yet I'd like the lurkers to WITNESS what you, and others like you, feel AND think about what I inquire above.
Should the snakeoil salesmen known as the governing boobs be exposed for the blood on their hands?
How much more time should this fraudulent "religious organization" be allowed to keep killing its members withs its ridiculous policies based on trumped up scripture? All the while, WT CHILDREN CONTINUE TO DIE??
What should society do with such scum?
sKally
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compound complex
Dear Skally,
I appreciate your contribution to this discussion and likewise wish to see sand put into the WT gears. STOP THE PRESSES! I am working on other issues currently that deal with the Society's infiltrating the minds and hearts of our children. With regard to the blood issue, however, I did a piece on Franz's pushing theocratic legislation with Knorr, resulting in the horrific situation we see today. WW II was over, and renewed persecution over a new issue - the ban on blood - would prove to gullible JWs that they were in the TRUTH! I used to be meek and mild. I think I've changed.
CoCo
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compound complex
FYI:
PERSECUTION WANES / BANNING BLOOD GARNERS PUBLICITY
www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/126825/1.ashx
The harm visited upon loved ones must stop! Thousands have needlessly died because two men's influence succeeded in framing weird, mischievous science into theocratic law!
CoCo