JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex 290 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Oroborus21

  Pilgrim,

  welcome to the forum. try using the buttons right next to where it says paragraph, font, size to format your text.

  anyway, it is very nice to have someone like you as a new forum participant. I welcome reading your posts in the future.

  I will summarize my view on this matter again, since I think in all of the back and forth it has gotten lost.

  I have never disagreed that the Custody "brochure" presents a distorted picture of JW culture, and especially life for JW children. We all know that the emphasis is on the faith and that all else non-JW is secondary and often portrayed as a distraction at best and as "dangerous" or detrimental to one's faith at worst.

  My only contention is whether the custody brochure fosters deceiving the courts by instructing (via others) JW children to "make up" hobbies, interests, activities, unrelated to JWdom (it doesn't) or by having them present their life in a distorted fashion. This latter part is where I have disagreed with everyone else it seems. My disagreement stems from what is not in the custody brochure, that is the reality that the JW faith is most important and prominent and excessively all encompassing will come forward in a child custody case. Others, seem to be arguing, that because that reality is not laid out in the CCB it means that it is deceptive. (I find it illogical to draw such a conclusion. That is to say that it is not logical to assert that something IS when that assertion is based on the mere absence of that thing in a place where one would expect it.)

  Uzzah, is correct that the CCB is intended to temper the view that JWs are one-sided (that is only focused on their faith or theocratic things), that is not disputed by anyone that I know of. Nor have I argued to the contrary. Again, in sum, I don't feel that it is a deception to suborn testiony that is cumulative and non-contradictory.

  What seems to be overlooked by everyone here is that the child is NOT being asked to give testimony about JW theology or teachings or even culture. They are being asked about their OWN experience. If they dislike the meetings they should say so. If they have other interests they will talk about them. If they don't then they don't. They aren't being asked to fabricate things.

  As for your post, true, most JW children would probably try to present their religion and their upbringing, and their parents in a good light. That is neither surprising nor unique to JW children is it?

  What is really interesting here is that the REASON that this is so controversial is ONLY because JWs are so committed to "truth" and "honesty" and because their culture emphasizes that these things are vitally important. It is because JWs are supposed to be such honest persons, that anything that is suggestive that they be anything but completely open and honest seems to be startling to our senses.

  I think that actually speaks volumes about their character..and it is a good testimony that even opposers find it irksome that JWs might possibliy be dishonest Think about that for a moment.

  anyway, I am far from being a JW apologist. Simply because I disagree, or argue in the minority, or state something that seems supportive of them, doesn't make me pro-JW.

  -Eduardo

  PS: you keep on quoting scriptures if you want to. you will find that the old aphorism that you can't please everyone is very true on the Net as it is in life. Persons like Skally (SF) and some others that you will figure out soon if you spend time on JWD are just as trapped by their own fundamentalism as some of the hard-core JWs they complain about. (I see she has even lumped you and I together after just a few posts of yours and not even knowing anything about you. how nice, and typical.) Anyway, you keep on posting. I think you will be a valuable contributor here. Shalom! as you say.
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  restrangled

  Here are two quotes from Orobus, the first being on the last page of this thread and the second being on the first page of this thread.......CAN YOU SAY "DOUBLE SPEAK"??????

  I have never disagreed that the Custody "brochure" presents a distorted picture of JW culture, and especially life for JW children. We all know that the emphasis is on the faith and that all else non-JW is secondary and often portrayed as a distraction at best and as "dangerous" or detrimental to one's faith at worst.

  .

  -Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.I don't see anything wrong with the directions provided. The idea is to present that JW kids are interested in other things other than spiritual things which is certainly the case. In this way a Court can see that JWs are not religious fanatics, that their faith is important to them, perhaps the primary thng in life, but certainly NOT the only thing in life

  R.
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  pilgrim searcher

  Thanks again for your observations. Your enthusiasm for a righteous cause is commendable. The problem is, as I see it, much of what you say is “half cocked.” That means, to me, that you are certainly determined to “shoot someone,” but we can only pray that it is the bad guy and not yourself or some other needful person who is even more the victim of misunderstood misinformation. As far as my response to some of your criticisms I have the following to say: If I understood what you said correctly, you don’t like my Pollyanna type “looking for the good” attitude because it may cause unsuspecting people to become entangled in the JW “organization and it's DEADLY, HATE-FILLED, DESTRUCTIVE-TO-FAMILIES policies” Do you really think your words are of any value whatsoever in convincing a person not to investigate JW,s? Such language is counterproductive in my opinion. The persons you are seeking to convince do not see the “HATE-FILLED” things you apparently see. Consequently, you and people like you are used by JW’s as an example of a deluded representative of the Devil who is obviously lying about JW’s for personal reasons. The usual line is that such outspoken critics are probably DF’d (I like “Dis-membered” better because it appears to be a more realistic expression) sinners of the “worst sort” and the organization has followed the Bible’s counsel in dealing with discenters. The prospective convert has no real choice but to agree because what you say does not agree with what he sees and your language is certainly "not loving" like that of his JW mentor. Would that bother you any if what I said were true? I don’t want to be too judgmental here because I don’t know what motivates you. Maybe these verbal outbursts are just personally cathartic and not intended really help anyone. I know that is true with regard the “advice” you have given me. So, who is your audience and what are your goals? Don’t tell me you want to stop all the JW murderers because I have never met one and I doubt that you have either. I do know families who have experienced catastrophic losses because of their convictions but I don’t view them as murders. I don’t want to offend you, but the Bible commends such behavior and they believe that they are following the Bible. If you ridicule the Bible in their presence, then you have lost all prospects of further dialog with them. Why would you do something that you know will clearly defeat your purpose? That is what confuses me for one. A quick word about investigation before joining. I was raised a JW and so I am sorry if I let that happen without sufficient “investigation.” Fortunately, when I did finally investigate the information objectively after 40 years of intense involvement at the highest levels, I changed my mind. That wasn’t easy and it required that I give up both my life-long friends and family. Have you ever experienced anything like that? Maybe you have but you have either forgot how you felt or are so jaded by the experience that all you can do is “seethe.” How productive is that? Are you trying to convince me to mend my way with insults and demeaning categorizations. Good luck in accomplishing anything constructive if that is your method. If you truly want to help, as you say you do, you should stop calling people silly names and address the problem not the symptoms. As I have said previously, like it or not, I think you may be more help to the JW cause than to your own. You should be more careful because Eduardo is likely to use your material to characterize the type people JW’s have to deal with. New converts do not see what you see. To them you are the liar. Until you learn to speak so as to be heard, you are “singing to the choir” in my opinion. This will be the last I have to say about this to you because I don’t think you are interested in having your “techniques” assessed. If you have anything constructive you want to talk about, I would enjoy exchanging ideas with you.
• 

  sf

  If you have anything constructive you want to talk about, I would enjoy exchanging ideas with you.

  I'm sure you would regret this too. But I appreciate your patronage.

  sKally
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  compound complex

  BTTT:

  Please refer to Danny's website for more info------

  www.dannyhaszard.com/whylie.htm [I initially misspelled D's last name and the search engine said, no matches for dannyhazard---did you mean TANNHAUSER?]

  More to follow for the benefit of Newbies and Uninformed Oldies. The above includes Ray Franz's comments on WT legalism and dishonesty in child custody cases.

  Compound-Complex
• 

  MinisterAmos

  Eduardo Said: The degree to which they associate with them is dependent on the circumstances

  The Watch tower orders: "A simple 'Hello' to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship" W 9/15/1981

  Is there anything that a non-JW might find 'balanced' in the above quote? To deny that the phrase is not furthering the insular agenda of this hypocritical cult would be disingenuous.

  Let's be honest shall we? The WT has innumerable admonitions against associating with 'worldly' people. If the kids are suddenly 'remembering' their non-JW friends on the witness stand it's because they have been COACHED not prepared. Coaching means council describes events in a manner that suggests to the witness (not JW) that they might have occured.

  Yes it's illegal and unethical but never prosecuted.
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  compound complex

  [Discussion of various circumstances under which the WTBTS "asserts" that the end justifies the means---only when pursued by the Organization.]:

  "Similar examples of inconsistency may also be found even in Watch Tower counsel given Witnesses, including young people, who are to testify under oath before a court. The legal department of the Society now supplies a brochure to Witnesses who are faced with child custody cases (the opposing mate in such cases generally being a non-witness). The brochure of more than 60 pages supplies guidelines to Witness parents, their children and their attorneys, as well as local elders and others who may testify, by reviewing difficult questions that may be presented by the opposing side and then offering suggested sample responses. Recalling the WATCHTOWER article on honesty cited earlier, we may remember that it asked:

  'What about truthfulness? Do we really respect the truth, or are we
  willing to twist the truth a little bit, to get out of an inconvenient circum-
  stance, or to get something we want?' - WT, 3/15/77, pp.191, 192.

  "Compare that with some of the responses suggested in the Society's manual. Under "APPROACH BY WITNESS PARENT TO CROSS-EXAMINATION," we find this question and suggested answer (page 12):

  'Will all Catholics (or other) be destroyed?'

  'Jehovah makes those judgments, not we.'

  "This sounds good, implies freedom from a dogmatic, judgmental attitude. Yet the Witness so responding knows that his organization's publications clearly teach that only those who are in association with "Jehovah's organization" will survive the "great tribulation," and that those who fail to come to that organization face destuction."
  ["Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." - WT, 9/1/89, p. 19.]

  More information on WT "broadmindedness" to come. [ISOCF, Ray Franz, p.283 (above)].

  Compound-Complex
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  compound complex

  BTTT

  I repeat---Dr. Jerry Bergman's article on WTSTWS and "her" peculiar need to lie:

  www.dannyhaszard.com/whylie.htm

  CoCo
• 

  compound complex

  BTTT-----------Please see www.dannyhaszard.com/whylie.htm

  Thanx,

  CoCo
• 

  compound complex

  IN SEARCH OF CHRISTIAN FREEDOM, Ray Franz, p. 284

  Under the section "DIRECT EXAMINATION AND RESPONSES FOR LOCAL ELDER," the booklet presents these questions and responses (pages 29-31):
  + What view does church [that is, the Witness religion] take toward people of other religions?
  (Jesus taught love neighbor as self, includes all: we respect others' right to worship as they choose.)
  + Does church teach that young people should learn only about religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?
  (No. Consider following objective consideration of other religions in our publications.) [This is followed by a list of articles in the WATCHTOWER and AWAKE! magazines.]

  "Again, the responses imply an attitude of considerable tolerance and even broadmindedness. Yet, once more, the Witness elder responding knows that his religion teaches that "people of other religions" are all within "Babylon the Great," the empire of false religion, depicted as a "great harlot" in Scripture, that the worship they have chosen is considered unchristian and, if continuing in it, they face destruction. He also knows that witnesses are urged not to have social relations with such "people of other religions," since such would have a "corrupting" effect, the only approved association with such being in "witnessing" to them in the hope of changing their religion. He knows that all the articles set out in the brochure's list emphasize negative aspects of the "other religions" discussed and that the organization discourages reading literature directly proceeding from other religions; only what it itself publishes about such religions is viewed as safe reading."

  More to follow.........

  Compound-Complex