More thoughts on Satan the Devil

by lovelylil 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  lovelylil

  The other day, we were discussing whether Satan is a real person (fallen Angel) or just the personification of evil. I was trying to see people's thoughts on this topic because many Christians I know claim Satan is not real. Even clergy today teach this. I think some got the impression that I don't believe in a literal Satan. I do believe in a literal, person of Satan. Although he is a spirit being so "person" would not be the correct word. However, I was just stating that Satan is a title, not a name. The Angel that led the rebellion was likely known by a different name when he was in the garden of Eden. But, upon slandering or opposing God, he was called "Satan" and "Devil". People who oppose or slander God could also be called a Satan or Devil. Got it?

  But, I do believe that in the garden, the snake was not an actual talking snake but was representative of Satan (the fallen Angel). During OT times, the terms snake, serpent, or dragon were used for those who were opposers of God.

  Other OT texts that name Satan are; 1 Chronicles 2:1, Job chapter 1, Zechariah 3. Satan is not an invention of the NT as some claim.

  Interestingly, Jude states that Michael the Archangel disbuted with the Devil over Moses body, although in our OT, this verse in not there. There are books and writings that are alluded to in our bible but not included. Obviously based upon Jude, Satan the Devil is at least named in one of these, probably more. Peace, Lilly
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  nicolaou

  Hello lovelylil, interesting topic!

  It's an old chestnut of a question but still valid I think. How is it possible that God, who is good and perfect and from whom only good things come, created a being that turned evil? What is the source of evil?
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  lovelylil

  Good question nic,

  I think in the case of Satan it was his jealousy of God that made him become evil, not that God created him evil. Although we are in God's image and therefore have ALL his qualities. And God is called a "jealous" God. If man is made with God's qualities than the Angels could have them too. And if Satan was Jealous and let it rule his thoughts, he would become wicked because of it. At least this is my thought on the matter. Lilly
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  Inquisitor

  But, I do believe that in the garden, the snake was not an actual talking snake but was representative of Satan (the fallen Angel). During OT times, the terms snake, serpent, or dragon were used for those who were opposers of God.

  But have you considered if that might be anachronistic thinking?

  You're saying that the meaning of serpentine symbols in later times be the basis for supposing that the serpent in Eden was not a snake. But what if the meaning of the serpentine symbols (opposition to God) was BASED upon the original understanding that a snake was used by Satan in Eden?? Do you see the problem here?

  INQ
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  lovelylil

  INQ,

  Interesting thought. Let me rephrase what I meant to say: There was not a snake who could talk on thier own volition but rather supernaturally spoke due to Satan's power. Hope this makes more sense. Sometimes my hands type faster than my brain can think.

  You raised an interesting point and that is the ancient writers modeled the snake, serpent, etc. after the snake in the garden, Is this what you are saying? If so, that is something I never considered before. So thanks for bringing that point out. Lilly
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  TopHat

  God made us a little lower than the Angels...I assume that means we do not have the supernatural powers of the spirit creatures. However, along came Satan and opened our eyes to good and EVIL, just as the spirit creatures. Yes, I believe Satan is real!

  Gen 3:22

  ¶

  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
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  lovelylil

  Tophat,

  Thank you. Your avatar is sooooo cute. Lilly
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  TopHat

  Thanks Lilly, Glad you like my avatar.....That is my little dog April....she died 4 1/2 years ago and my daughter made her an angel. NOW, if only we could do that in real life..huh?
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  Terry

  History and scholarship demonstrate that it was only after the deportation to Babylon that the Jews were introduced to the Good Cop Bad Cop dichotomy of God and Satan. Post exile theology transformed by Babylonian philosophy, myth, theology and ethos had a remarkable effect on Hebrew intellectual philosophy and subsequent "holy" writings.

  Satan is an impossible figure theologically where an all-powerful and benign God actually exists.

  The feckless depiction of a kind of barroom wager between God and Satan in the (probably spurious) book of JOB demonstrates the empty-headed theology of a competition between good and evil to be proved through sadistic manipulation of humankind.
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  sir82

  An interesting topic - I can't quite wrap my head around the "official" Christian position on this.

  I think in the case of Satan it was his jealousy of God that made him become evil, not that God created him evil.

  To me this just begs the question. Let's rephrase it then - why would God, who at first was completely alone, ever create anything that had the potential to be evil? Why create a universe where evil was possible?

  And I know the answer that will be given will have something to do with "free will". Well and good, but then...why create a universe where unspeakable horror and sadness could exist for thousands of years for billions of people? Why not, when creating a universe from scratch, make it such that if some creations choose to exercise their free will in a "wrong way" (there's a whole 'nother topic for discussion there - is "free will" really "free" if there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way to exercise it?), the effect is bad - but not on such a horrific scale?

  Is it really necessary for the "wrong" use of free will to result in, eventually, for example, millions upon millions of children to born into a short life of 2 or 3 years in which every moment is agony? and for this to go on for thousands of years? If the answer is yes - why "yes"?

  Wouldn't it be "enough" for a few thousand children to suffer and die? Why millions? Why create a universe where suffering on a such a grand scale is the inevitable result of making the "wrong" choice?

  Although we are in God's image and therefore have ALL his qualities.

  Interesting implications...so then, since one of God's creations DID become evil, does that mean that God has the potential to become evil? How do we know that he didn't become evil?