More thoughts on Satan the Devil

by lovelylil 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  sir82

  Lilly,

  Back to the fray!

  Actually, I think we are beginning to repeat ourselves...I don't think there is much more to be gained, we seem to be at an impasse. I keep seeing answers to questions I haven't posed, and no replies to the ones I do. Here is one more valiant attempt.

  You want physical proof of God and not spiritual proof, because you cannot touch and feel or "see" with your physical eyes the spiritual things. At least not at this time.

  Not really what I am requesting. I don't want "proof" of God - we are physical beings, and God is defined to be spiritual, i.e. non-physical. Impossible to sense physically.

  All I want, as a first step, is to understand the concept of God. Once that is done, it would make sense to search for him.

  Let me illustrate it this way: Suppose you have an Uncle Leo who lives in Idaho that you are very fond of, and want me to know all about him. I've never been to Idaho, and I have no plans to go there an time soon, and Uncle Leo is not going to come see me. So all my information about him has to come from you. So you begin to tell me about him.

  But as you go along, there are certain contradictions & inconsistencies. You tell me he is allergic to shellfish, but later you say his favorite food is shrimp gumbo. You tell me he is 40 years old, but later you tell me he was an eyewitness to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Things just don't add up.

  You can tell me about him for hours on end, but at the end of the day, I really don't know Uncle Leo. Things just don't make sense.

  Likewise with God. People tell me I should know God. But he has, for whatever reason, decided not to reveal himself to me.

  Fine, let's go to Plan B. I'll read about him in this book that those same people said he wrote. But as I read the book, I see logical contradictions & inconsistencies. I can't wrap my head around how this person can exist, when there are so many discrepancies.

  OK, how about Plan C. I'll talk to believers, those who have (apparently) reconciled these issues themselves. But they keep answering questions I'm not asking.

  There are dozens of questions I have, but to keep it tied (somewhat loosely!) to the theme of this thread, I'll restrict myself to 2:

  1) How can an omnipotent God, utterly incapable of committing any evil act, create beings "in his image", but those beings DO have the capacity for evil? When God was alone, evil did not exist. He creates other beings, and BAM! suddenly they are capable of evil. Where did that evil come from?

  2) How can a God of perfect love and justice design a universe in which billions of innocent beings suffer from the actions of others? Wouldn't it be far more loving and just for the evil actions of "Person X" to only affect "Person X"? Why design a system in which "Person X" can take an action, and as a direct result, millions of (for example) babies, who under no stretch of the imagination can be considered guilty of sin, suffer excruciating pain and then die?

  I don't expect you to have the answers. Thousands of persons far more intelligent than you or me have pondered these things for thousands of years - and here we are in 2007, still asking the same questions.

  Anyways, peace and respect to you. I'm glad you have found something you can have faith in.
• 

  lovelylil

  Sir,

  (edited)

  I've tried to answer your questions the best I can but they keep leading to more questions. I am now feeling I should have just let it go and kept to my original response which is; no answer I give you will be satisfying enough for you. Lilly
• 

  sir82

  Lilly
• 

  sir82

  Lilly,

  You've gone from stating thoughtful (& interesting! - really) points to making unsupported assumptions & assertions about me personally. I'm rather disappointed.

  Also believers see God in all of creation, only you don't believe that anything was created. Rather you believe it just naturally developed.

  How did you determine this? Nothing in any of my previous posts even hinted at that.

  you and others believe we Christians are under some sort of dellusion

  I would never say that. Can you point to something in my posts which indicate that?

  you will not accept our personal testimony of experiences with God as evidence.

  Of course I accept it as "evidence". I believe you experienced these things - honestly, I really do. But I have not had your experiences, nor any of my own.

  You also do not accept Jesus as being a real historical person

  Can you show me where I stated, or even inferred that?

  let alone that he was God's Son either

  Can you show me where I stated, or even inferred that?

  I'd prefer to discuss the issues that I raised, rather than my (or your) personal opinions. But if that cannot be, peace to you.
• 

  bebu

  Let me focus on these two comments/questions.
  

  1) How can an omnipotent God, utterly incapable of committing any evil act, create beings "in his image", but those beings DO have the capacity for evil? When God was alone, evil did not exist. He creates other beings, and BAM! suddenly they are capable of evil. Where did that evil come from?

  When God was alone, He also had freedom of choice of good/evil, and this is what He gave to humans. God always has known the difference between good and evil, and has always been able to choose. Jesus reflected this freedom in Gethsemane in particular. It is hard for me to grasp that God has eternally had complete freedom, even freedom to do evil, but has never chosen it.

  To become like Himself, mankind was granted the same freedom. The story of the garden says that freedom was there, and temptation was extremely small--only one tree's fruit to worry about; and no physical temptation to eat the fruit from hunger, the only temptation came from jealousy/envy of God's position, and distrust of God's motives.

  It seems to me that the Holy Spirit is given to people so that they can share God's nature of goodness, and still keep the freedom of choice, because freedom of choice is an integral part of the process of who we become. Freedom is a kind of catalyst.

  I am convinced that God knows how to have his cake and eat it too. He certainly grasped the dangers, the costs to us and Himself, and the final results. He knows the results for us will be worth the process, and part of our process is regaining trust in God's motives, and to trust Him that the results--that we become just like Him--will indeed be worth it. No mind on earth can conceive what that may be like.

  2) How can a God of perfect love and justice design a universe in which billions of innocent beings suffer from the actions of others? Wouldn't it be far more loving and just for the evil actions of "Person X" to only affect "Person X"? Why

  Humanly, we know it is right to try to limit what ill effects that we can. But how do you know that God hasn't limited consequences as much as allowable, or is best? Everyone sins, and part of sin is that someone else gets hurt. Not all sin can be categorized as "this doesn't involve anyone else"; in fact I don't think any of it can. Our reality is that we are all connected to each other, that we are relational. We didn't get the option of being able to isolate ourselves utterly so that our sins will just pain ourselves. We get to have the full effect of what sin can do in our lives, and to read about it in newspapers too.

  There are many kinds of pain in life, but suffering at the hands of malicious or indifferent people are the worst imo. In that crucible we are allowed to make responses to that pain, responses that can overcome the evil that brought that pain. We can forgive our enemies, we can make choices that involve sacrifice if needed. We can refuse to hate or take revenge. None of these greater choices could exist if we were permanently separated from each other in hermetically (sp?) sealed spaces. These are all related to our freedom of choice as well, and they shape our spirit.

  Suffering injustice is not a shallow issue. If our trials are significant, then our subsequent choices are also significant, even wildly significant. By our choices we do the very thing you said should be done, which is to limit the effects of evil. We can, Jesus said, overcome evil with good, and be like God in this way.

  ALL IMO.

  bebu
• 

  sir82

  Bebu,

  Excellent! Thank you for your answers.

  Allow me to post some follow-up questions:

  God always has known the difference between good and evil , and has always been able to choose .

  So, you are saying that "good" and "evil" exist as concepts apart from God? God can choose to do "good", or he can choose to do "evil"?

  Who determined what exactly is good, so that God could thus do it? Who determined what is "evil", that God has chosen not to do? Who sets the standards that God follows?

  But how do you know that God hasn't limited consequences as much as allowable

  Who determines what consequences are allowable, and which are not?

  Good points on "hermetically sealed" humans... you've given me food for thought!
• 

  bebu

  So, you are saying that "good" and "evil" exist as concepts apart from God? God can choose to do "good", or he can choose to do "evil"?

  I am of the mind that goodness is God's nature, and though the possibility exists to act outside that nature, He does not. It is my nature to keep myself alive, a nature I think God put into most living things. I don't know if this is an appropriate example, but if I drive on the highway near a cliff, and it is my nature to be safe, I will not choose to drive over the edge because I understand it will be 'wrong' to my nature. God eternally stays to the right (for driving in the US, that is!).

  Who determined what exactly is good, so that God could thus do it? Who determined what is "evil", that God has chosen not to do? Who sets the standards that God follows?

  God is said to be perfect in wisdom, so I would say that it is inherent in His own nature as well. That is, His understanding of the current situation and all possible scenarios.

  I think goodness primarily has to do with God's disposition toward humanity--that He is concerned about our well-being (iow, He loves us) and takes our lives as seriously as His own. He wraps our fate with His, so that all that we do affects Him, and all that He allows in our lives is ultimately from His being able to see all possible scenarios like a chessplayer sees moves on the chessboard, except thru every possible game, for each person and for humanity as a whole.

  The yardstick that humans and God use are similar in principle but different in size. That is, to act such that, as far as one is able to see, the results will be benevolent is "good". God's horizons are bigger, obviously, but His choices are only for our eternal good--again, because He knows all the parameters.

  Does that make sense?

  bebu
• 

  Terry

  Does anyone alive doubt that each sane person on Earth today would immediately take whatever steps are necessary to actually choose the following IF it were in their power to do so?

  1. Choose to make only the best decisions in each situation that brings the greatest possible good to the greatest number of people.

  2.End death and suffering and create a society of fairness and equitable treament.

  3.Choose the highest accurate education in harmony with all the facts and operate in accordance with the reality of that knowlege at all times.

  4.End the struggle to survive based on ignorance, superstition, economic hardship and deficits of birth and heredity.

  5.End the need for oversight and government by having the wisdom and ability to self-govern without trampling on the self-governance of your neighbor.

  6.Choose a purpose for life that fully employs talents and abilities of one's own choosing rather than struggling to compete with those better born, better financed and more innately empowered than you.

  7.Live at one with nature without destroying the beauty and fragility of life forms through a constant need to exploit resources for fuel, energy, food and habitation.

  In other words, all the above would be POSSIBLE if God had not made man INFERIOR to Himself. The bred-in INFERIORITY of man is the beginning of his woes. Animal life on Earth must destroy other living things in order to survive! Death and a struggle are inherent in God's plan from the outset.

  God could easily create life that exists off of sunlight and requires the death of nothing at all! Without having to kill plants and animals there would be no need to poop or urinate either.

  All the foulness and disharmony in our world is the result of OUR NATURE which we are mostly powerless to avoid.

  That is the source of man's woes. The fact we wish to hold our concept of "God" blameless leads us semi-logically to create a fallguy and scapegoat to take all blame. Satan in whatever form we imagine serves such a purpose.

  The unfairness and the imbalance commences with our inequality and inability borne by our DNA. If you are going to have to have a "God" you better blame him for that. If not, then embrace the fact that we are the products of a hit or miss chaos and the world reflects that chaos and lucidly explains the violent nature of nature.
• 

  sir82

  Bebu,

  Very interesting, I will have to think about that.

  Now, why weren't there ever Watchtowers or public talks that had points like that!
• 

  Terry

  if I drive on the highway near a cliff, and it is my nature to be safe, I will not choose to drive over the edge because I understand it will be 'wrong' to my nature. God eternally stays to the right (for driving in the US, that is!).

  I'm afraid you are laying a logical trap for yourself and squelching your own argument.

  If we drive carefully due to our NATURE it isn't really a decision based on alternative choices.

  We ARE what we are. Because of this; we do what we do. A stick floats and a rock sinks. Like it or lump it.

  Religion makes us out to be sinners by NATURE. The nature of a sinner is to sin, after all and the wages of sin is death. That, the bible tells us, is WHY we have to die.

  But, the CHOICE to overcome our own nature comes from where?

  It lies OUTSIDE ourselves. God GIVES us the ability to choose a godly nature, we are told.

  To those whom God does NOT give this choice only destruction can follow.

  Many come to him pleading: "Lord, Lord" and he turns those people away.

  Not a pretty scenario for fairness or justice. It is all arbitrary.

  The artisan creates some pots that are useful, we are told, and some pots that are only worth breaking into pieces. Who are we, we are further admonished, to question God over which is which?

  No, this isn't fairness nor is it justice nor does it logically present God or Satan in a believable context.