More thoughts on Satan the Devil

by lovelylil 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bebu
    bebu
    If we drive carefully due to our NATURE it isn't really a decision based on alternative choices.

    It is if we are aware of those choices and have the opportunity to make them.

    Religion makes us out to be sinners by NATURE. The nature of a sinner is to sin, after all and the wages of sin is death. That, the bible tells us, is WHY we have to die.

    But, the CHOICE to overcome our own nature comes from where?

    It lies OUTSIDE ourselves. God GIVES us the ability to choose a godly nature, we are told.

    To those whom God does NOT give this choice only destruction can follow.

    The "natural" starting point of the innocent or a sinner isn't necessarily their ending point. Freedom of choice, plus the grace of God, allows either to end up wherever they prefer. Freedom of choice cuts both ways. It gives a lot of fallout in both directions.

    Denominations argue about the difficulty of reconciling free choice with the sovereign choices of God. It seems a lot like how our scientists talk about things that are beyond the reach of a microscope or telescope, so the ideas are always incomplete--and always will be for our understanding. Nonetheless we find that many models scientists present, even though they sometimes conflict or seem absurd, are useful and true from certain, if not all, standpoints.

    I have to get going and so I can't say more in response for a long while. SORRY.

    bebu

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Bebu,

    I love the way you explains things.

    Sir,

    I am glad that Bebu is able to help you with your questions. I had a very bad day yesterday with my vision and other problems. I printed out our conversation today and think I confused some of your questions with what Terry was saying and I also misunderstood one of your questions. I wanted to let you know because I really did want to help you find the answers you are seeking.

    Don't give up trying to find the answers. I'm still learning lots of things myself. At least we are out of the WT and now able to ask questions. Life is a continuing learning and growing process. Good luck with your search. Lilly

  • Terry
    Terry
    The "natural" starting point of the innocent or a sinner isn't necessarily their ending point. Freedom of choice, plus the grace of God, allows either to end up wherever they prefer. Freedom of choice cuts both ways. It gives a lot of fallout in both directions.

    You are simply asserting a process you call "choice" without really demonstrating it exists.

    I'm saying that "choice" isn't what we customarily subconsciously agree in public that it is.

    The stupidity of a superhuman God giving actual choice to volatile life forms is easily illustrated.

    Imagine you are an inventor. You are about to invent a light switch that will turn the lights off or on. Would you include an optional either/or flux that could defeat your switch? In other words, would you create the possibility that the switch might stay off when you want it on arbitrarily?

    Or, let's make it more dangerous.

    Imagine you are about to invent an accellerator pedal for your car. Would you include the arbitrary mechanism which would speed up the car if you hit the brake or slow down when you step on the gas peddle? Of course not!!

    Ask yourself why you would NOT want the light switch to "decide" or "choose" to thwart its on purpose. Ask yourself why you would NOT wish the accellerator peddle to defeat your intention through its own decision.

    Can you think of a reason?

    Well, I'll give you a big one. By designing "choice" in something with a PURPOSE you defeat your purpose through possibility of chaos and guarantee frustration of your own intention. For a human this defeat of purpose (and the following chaos) is dangerous. Why? Because we can't be certain about the outcome. For God, it is silly because he has to deal with the totally UNnecessary mess and cost of lives.

    (If God's will for man is BEST for man--nothing can be added by "choice". Man is in NO way harmed by having his nature ideally tuned to optimum behavior. There is nothing lost at all!!)

    See my point?

    Let me put it as simply as possible.

    If humans had the prime objective of doing the best possible, most beneficial actions imprinted in their own nature, there would only be success for humanity. When you introduce the defeat button of "choice" the ONLY choice that is different from perfect choice is IMPERFECT choice.

    Get it?

    Human choice ONLY ALLOWS IMPERFECTION! It is guaranteed.

    That light switch performs no service for you, the inventor, if you must wait on it to decide to follow your purpose. It defeats your purpose when it stays off and you want it on.

    The accellerator peddle can kill the driver if the "choice" goes contrary to purpose.

    See?

    The huge flaw in the premise of human choice BEING A GOOD THING THAT GOD HAS GIVEN MANKIND is totally illogical and illusory.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Terry...

    I would like to quickly comment on this statement...

    "The stupidity of a superhuman God giving actual choice to volatile life forms is easily illustrated."

    The Bible is quite clear on the fact that God has NOT left every choice up to volatile life forms...the final "choice" is up to Him. In His mercy, He has the option to choose YOU or not...how ironic.

    love michelle

    p.s. We are asked to choose God above everything else..."choosing a godly nature"? In an honest person it would seem to be inherent, however in cases like Paul there is a marked change in "nature".

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    "God is said to be perfect in wisdom, so I would say that it is inherent in His own nature as well."

    Unfortunately this simply leads back to square one. You admit previously that god is "capable" of acting in a "good" or "evil" way. Now, these are ways of defining actions that are derived from underlying "traits". This is a tacit admission that "evil" is a property of god. How could it be any other way? If god created the universe from nothingness, and all components within that universe, he is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. It is the only logical conclusion to draw without by necessity demonstrating that evil existed before god, if it did NOT exist before god, than obviously, god created it. EITHER of these possibilites contradicts the theological conception of god:

    1) If premise 1 is correct (god did indeed create evil), then evil is a part of god, ergo, god is imperfect (unless he possesses "perfect evil?" ), which leads to the obvious question, why would anyone worship a flawed and imperfect being?

    2) If evil existed before god, which is the ONLY logical alternative to premise 1, the logical conclusion is that god must have had a beginning, is therefore finite, ergo limited in his/her/its "omniscience".....

    The typical response would be that evil arose AFTER god created the universe. However, that is simply a cop-out. If the "template" of the universe was created by god, its ultimately his own design flaw that left this gaping "potential" for evil amongst the beings he created to bow down before his greatness. Unfortunately, the only answers we seem to be getting from the believers is hand waving, deflections and evasive "change the topic" responses. Its depressing knowing ones belief system appears to be resting upon such fragile and self-contradictory premises, incapable of providing clear and satisfactory answers.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear kid-A...

    "Its depressing knowing ones belief system appears to be resting upon such fragile and self-contradictory premises, incapable of providing clear and satisfactory answers."

    depressing to you?...hey get over it...we're fine...

    love michelle

  • Terry
    Terry
    The Bible is quite clear on the fact that God has NOT left every choice up to volatile life forms...the final "choice" is up to Him. In His mercy, He has the option to choose YOU or not...how ironic.

    Look at what a CHOICE actually is. Choice begins with NOT knowing what to do and deciding based on the best information one can gather and then weighing the data carefully using a standard.

    GOD can never do this. Why? God KNOWS everything to begin with!

    God, by definition, has all the correct data. Everything is a matter of WILL and not choice.

    God, by virtue of the fact he has all the power to CHANGE the limited choices of his creation, is the ultimate VETO to choice. This renders those choices POINTLESS from the getgo.

    The silly idea that God knows what is best and yet allows inferior creatures to mess themselves up and mess others up with free will is a slap in the face to reasonable thinking. It is pointless.

    It is like having a Professor of Physics come into a kindergarten class and explain calculus to the children and then let them try and solve physics problems. It is a complete waste of time.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Again and again. Satan is mentioned in historical books. Books that are written by mankind throughout the ages. So, it's hearsay information that has been passed down to us who read those books. Belief systems the world over about the existence of Satan, Devil, Evil Spirit, differ from culture to culture, Judaism, Islamism, Christianity, believers, unbelievers. Faith is different from belief. Personal experience with a God, Jesus, Spirit TRUMPS all of this, and cannot be aurgued.

    What can be aurgued in a reasonable and logical discussion is whether or not one Holy Book form the other is inspired of or from God or not. Once it is shown that all so-called Holy Books are hand me downs as hearsay information, we have eliminated one source to rely on for an answer to Satan's existence as a real spirit person.

    The next source would have to be one in where an individual has had a personal experience that cannot be aurgued with. It is this personal experience that many have not had and few have. The few that have had it are given answers to these very questions that those who have not had it are trying to come to terms with.

    I have never had an experience with Satan or God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, whatever you want to call it. I have read books, some I agree with others I don't. One book that I read in many different versions over and over through my life is the Bible. I come to my own conclusion that it is not inspired of God, that it is written and re-written over and over again and is a history of different cultures of mankind. This does not mean that there is nothing to be found that is good in these books. There is something good that we can take away from reading many books.

    So, that leaves me with waiting for a personal experience of some kind to convince me otherwise. Lilly, Good for you!

    Blueblades

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Terry...

    you said:

    Look at what a CHOICE actually is. Choice begins with NOT knowing what to do and deciding based on the best information one can gather and then weighing the data carefully using a standard.

    The apostle Paul had authority in his "business" life...Acts 9:1-2...

    The apostle Paul had some distinction in his "religious/social" life...Acts 22:3...

    All this came because of choices he had made completely of his own free will...this is demonstrated by the very fact that he was given NO CHOICE in that Jesus made him do something completely different!!!... Acts 9:5-6...

    he was used as an example...1 Timothy 1:15-16...as we continue to use our will to make our "choices" daily...

    love michelle

  • dark angle
    dark angle

    would it be possible that all of our preconceived idea about God & Satan are entirely or partially incorrect? i think its very likely. the whole idea of good and evil stems from the polaristic view of the bible.

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