More thoughts on Satan the Devil

by lovelylil 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  sir82

  Lovelylil,

  What a horrible experience! Thank you for sharing it.

  I've never experienced anything like that - neither my life being threatened, nor the feeling that God especially protected me.

  I read, in this forum and others, of some who have had some sort of "spiritual experience" - and I feel almost envious. I would like to believe - and God gives these experiences to others, and not me? Why?

  So I am stuck looking for answers to questions that are probably unanswerable.

  Oh well, on with the search for answers!
• 

  Narkissos

  Other OT texts that name Satan are; 1 Chronicles 2:1, Job chapter 1, Zechariah 3

  Only in 1 Chronicles 21 can Satan be construed as a personal name -- while this is probable this is not absolutely sure; the anarthrous satan might also be construed as the equivalent of an indefinite article, "a satan". In both Zechariah and Job it is a noun (title) with the article, ha-satan = the satan.

  Interestingly the "Satan" (or satan) in 1 Chronicles plays the part which was ascribed to Yahweh in the source text 2 Samuel 24.

  The best parallels for Satan as an enemy of "God" are not Babylonian but Persian (in Zoroastrian dualism, Ahriman similarly opposes the god of light Ahura Mazda). Of course the Persians were the masters of both Babylon and Judea from 539 BC onward.

  I already tried to explain (only a few days ago) why the satan in Zechariah and Job is not to be seen as an enemy of Yahweh, but rather a servant in the role of "witness for the prosecution," defending Yahweh's interests by charging one of his human servants (Joshua or Job). Obviously I have failed.
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  lfcviking

  why would God, who at first was completely alone, ever create anything that had the potential to be evil? Why create a universe where evil was possible?

  Good point 'sir82' for this very reason his creation is flawed and since his creation is flawed does this make him imperfect also?
• 

  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  You did not fail. You explained it very well. But I think the Job Satan explaination is one view. I know others who think a little differently on that. I was trying to explain to how Satan is used in different ways in the Bible too and not only for the personal name of the fallen Angel. But, I am beginning to feel I am also failing in this endeavor. Lilly
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  lovelylil

  Sir,

  You asked me a question about why God permits evil on the scale we see today and I did not give you an adequate answer. My fear was that since you are not a Bible believer, if I gave you a scriptural answer, it would not be adequate for you anyway. But after thinking about it, I feel compelled to try to give you an answer. For I actually feel guilty about not trying to answer you. I've never not answered someone, I don't want you to be the first.

  I'll answer in the words of the Apostle Paul for I think he explained it better than I can;

  Romans 9:22,23 - What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepard for destruction*. What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

  * destruction means judgement here.

  In other words; evil has been permitted by God in order that his justice might be manifested in its punishment, and his grace might be manifest in its forgiveness.

  Peace, Lilly
• 

  Terry

  Romans 9:22,23 - What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepard for destruction*. What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

  * destruction means judgement here.

  In other words; evil has been permitted by God in order that his justice might be manifested in its punishment, and his grace might be manifest in its forgiveness.

  Simply stated: Justice is getting what you really deserve and not getting what you do not deserve.

  If God exists and is a God of Justice he would not permit the undeserving to suffer; he would not permit the deserving to exercise the freedom to hurt the innocent. This world demonstrates clearly either there is no God or there is a God with no sense of Justice.

  For God to, in fact BE God he already has all the power necessary to sort things out without the mess. The fact that we have a mess (as far as a balance between who deserves what and who gets what) demonstrates exactly the sort of chaos one would expect in a universe in which life has evolved on a eat-or-be-eaten basis (survival of the fittest).

  The crackpot declaration that a JUST God "permits" evil to manifest "justice" is so wrong-headed and illogical we should be laughing rather than putting it forward as an explanation.

  It would be like a mother or father allowing their children to play in traffic while saying, "Don't worry, we'll prosecute any driver who runs over them!"
• 

  lovelylil

  Terry,

  You are entitled to your opinion. and I did not give an answer, the Apostle Paul did. You can take up your objections with him. Lilly
• 

  sir82

  Loveylil,

  Thanks for the scriptural citation and the attempt to answer my question - but I still don't get it.

  Imagine if you will, God is planning the universe that he will create shortly. He has several options...imagine him having a converstion with himself (at this point, there's no one else to talk to anyway!):

  1) "I can create a universe where free will exists, but if one of my creations happens to use it in a 'wrong' way, I'll have him suffer some sort of unpleasant consequence. It will be unpleasant, but not too bad. I will gradually 'nudge' him into seeing the 'right' way to use his free will. And only that one creature will suffer - innocent persons, too young to even be capable to sin, will of course never have to endure anything unpleasant - until/unless they make their own mistakes."

  2) "Or, I can create a universe where free will exists, but if one of my creations happens to use it in a 'wrong' way, I'll have him suffer horrible, unimaginable pain. And not only him! All the billions of his descendants will suffer too! For thousands of years! Everybody will suffer over and over and over again! That way, I'll show my wrath and make my power known! This will make the richness of the glory of my mercy all the more appealing to the handful of of persons whom I shall select to enjoy glory!"

  Why did God pick option 2?

  Justice does not exist apart from God - God does not hold to some ideal higher than he is, named "Justice". God defines justice - he is God, after all, he created everything - not only the physical universe, but concepts like "love" and "justice".

  When he created the concept of "justice" - way back before he created any physical thing - why did he create it in such a way that "evil has been permitted by God in order that his justice might be manifested in its punishment, and his grace might be manifest in its forgiveness"?

  Why create this concept called "justice" that requires billions of innocent people to suffer for thousands of years? Couldn't he have picked a less painful way to make his point?
• 

  lovelylil

  Sir,

  Your second scenario is where you and others have it wrong. We are not suffering all this pain and conflict in the world just because of original sin. (Adams). We simply die because of this sin. We also lost our intimate relationship and fellowship with God because of it.

  But We suffer all the other horrors in this world as a direct consequence of mankind itself and the choices they have made. God does not cause anyone to sin. It is man (idividuals) who decide thier own destiny at this time. That is why Adam and Eve ate the "fruit". They wanted to be like God and make their own decisions. Ever heard the saying "be careful what you wish for?" They did not feel that God should direct thier lives. They wanted to direct themselves and that is exactly what most of mankind wants today too. So, we (humans) got our wish. What is the problem then? Why are we angry at God for not stepping in to do something now that we want him to, as apposed to when he decides to? Maybe, just maybe in the end. mankind will learn WHY we are not to be independent of God.

  Remember that God made man Lord of the earth and put everything on earth in subjection to him. And now HE can decide how to live based upon his own desire. He (man) has abused his power given, fogetting that he was still to do things God's way, and has due to his own greed and selfishness, dominated other man to his injury.

  We still all have a choice in this matter. Although man is capable of extreme evil, he is also capable of extreme love. We must each pick our own way, that is where our "free will" comes into play. No one, not even God is forcing men to continually sin and commit the acts they have commited against the rest of humanity. There are many in this world who lived lives exemplifying peace and good to all, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Pope John Paul II, etc. They chose to live in peace with man and seek the good of humanity. We ALL are capable of this.

  The only point of the scriptural reference of Paul is this; that when God does judge mankind, we will understand his judgement better. And understand his grace and forgiveness on a greater scale. For although man has sinned against man, If there is a God (and I believe there is), we (humans) have sinned against HIM to a much higher degree by turning our backs on him, rejecting his son, committing atrocities against all his creation, polluting the glorious planet he gave us as a home, and much more.

  I know you won't agree. I'm sorry I can't explain it better. That is why I said in the beginning, no answer will really be adequate enough for you unless you can "see" GOD in a different way, the way I see him. But I did feel compelled to try to give you an answer anyway, even knowing you will reject it. Peace in your life always, Lilly
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  sir82

  Lovelylil,

  It's not a matter of "agreeing" or "disagreeing"...it's a matter of understanding.

  Your response is interesting, but it does not answer the questions I raised. You seem to be answering the question you want to answer, or perhaps the question you are used to answering...but not really answering my question.

  But that's probably not fair - you are not God, you can't give his answer for him. I just thought that perhaps you had thought thru this before, and could explain it to me. As you don't seem to understand my question, it seems that you haven't thought of it before, and can have faith anyway. Which is fine.

  I don't know that anything else can be accomplished in this format - I'm asking Question A, and you're answering Question B.

  I will continue my search for answers. Thanks for the conversation - at least I was able to more fully crystallize the questions I have in my own mind.