Terry,
Could you provide me with some references I can check for myself to support your views about Satan or the idea of him being borrowed from Babylon? Thank you Lilly
More thoughts on Satan the Devil
by lovelylil 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
daystar
During OT times, the terms snake, serpent, or dragon were used for those who were opposers of God.
Really... How is it that Moses' staff turned to a snake then? What about the healing snake idol that was used in that one story (I forget the names involved and the scripture, if anyone wants to help out), where they all fell before Jah's agent and his golden snake on the post and were healed? (The caduceus or Asclepius.)
The snake was not exclusively associated with "opposers of God".
-
lovelylil
Sir,
The first question you answered yourself with "free will". We are not robots and can make our own decisions, including the Angels.
The 2nd Q is harder to answer. We really cannot understand everything unless we can totally get into the Mind of God and his plans for mankind. Most Christians realize God has a much bigger plan than we can see with our limited scope. This is the quick answer which I am sure will not satisfy you. But I am sure you've asked this Q before, I know its been addressed on the forum a lot, and my answers will be similiar to what most Christians think. If you haven't accepted those answers, you won't accept a repeat of them. Peace, Lilly
-
lovelylil
Daystar,
You missed the point. If someone was CALLED a "snake, or serpent" it would signify that they were in opposition to God. For example Satan is called the "original serpent" another term used for opposers of God was "Leviathan" I was not saying God's people did not or could not use snakes. Lilly
-
sir82
The 2nd Q is harder to answer.
Not sure which is my "2nd question" - I asked about a dozen!
We really cannot understand everything unless we can totally get into the Mind of God and his plans for mankind.
Isn't there a scripture somewhere which says "But who can know the mind of God?" Doesn't seem very fair that the only way to understand the issue is to be on a par with God himself, when we are created as inferior to him.
Most Christians realize God has a much bigger plan than we can see with our limited scope. This is the quick answer which I am sure will not satisfy you. But I am sure you've asked this Q before, I know its been addressed on the forum a lot, and my answers will be similiar to what most Christians think. If you haven't accepted those answers, you won't accept a repeat of them.
I don't ever recall asking (at least on this forum) my question of "why would God create a universe that was potentially so evil?" and I certainly don't recall seeing any answers to that issue - "acceptable" or not.
I am asking out of sincerity. I'd be first in line to be a believer, if I could get satisfying answers.
Obviously you have thought about this issue yourself - you seem to be a committed believer. I don't see how anyone with more than a child's intellect could be satisfied with a mere shrug of the shoulders and say "well God has a plan & we can't understand it". It would be enormously unloving of God to create within us the desire to understand, and then prevent us from doing so. He's not that unloving, is he?
So what is your secret? How have you resolved this issue in your own mind so that you see God as loving, worthy of your worship - given the questions above?
-
daystar
Lovelylil
You're splitting hairs here.
Also the logic is faulty. Can I play with demons as long as I'm not called one myself?
Either the serpent is symbolic of the opposer, or it's not. If you dig a bit more, perhaps outside of literature that is so appealing to your paradigm, you will find that it is more accurate that the serpent, including in the story of the "fall" of man, more accurately symbolises wisdom rather than necessarily opposition... unless... you're opposed to wisdom?
-
TopHat
daystar:
you will find that it is more accurate that the serpent, including in the story of the "fall" of man, more accurately symbolises wisdom rather than necessarily opposition... unless... you're opposed to wisdom?
Maybe the wisdom you speak of "IS" the "fall' of man. But, someone or thing add to give that wisdom to us, to open our eyes to good and evil. I often wonder why God was so afraid of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life. Did he not have the power to reverse everlasting life?
If there is a God: Then it is true, we do not know his way of thinking.
-
lovelylil
daystar,
Again, you are totally missing what I was saying.
Sir,
You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I've been a believer since I was 12. I do consider myself to be more educated then a child. But I don't try to pretend that I have all the answers for everyone. My point was this; obviously you don't hold any faith in God or the Bible, so it would be pointless for me to give you biblical answers to your questions. You see God as somehow not being loving because one of the beings he created (Satan) became evil and I see that as not being God's fault and not taking one bit away from his love for us. The reason being that although God could have created us with the inablity to sin, he would have had to do so by not giving us free will. And I can't speak for God, but he decided that he wanted us to have free will for his own reasons. Maybe he wanted creatures who would love and worship him because they wanted to, and not because they were robots unable to decide for themselves. Therefore, it is my opinion, that if we (man) or Angels decide to use it (free will) in a negative way, for evil, we cannot blame God for that.
Zondervans Bible Dictionary on page 899 makes this point about the term/name Satan and that is it can be translated two ways from Hebrew. One is as a general term for all those who are adversaries or in opposition to God. And the 2nd is translated as the personal Satan. (fallen Angel). If anyone has access to this book, I would suggest you look it up yourself. As it explains this point very well. And I am not a Hebrew scholar nor do I pretend to be. Peace, Lilly
-
sir82
You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
Of course! I hope I didn't give the impression that no one is entitled to their own opinions.
But I don't try to pretend that I have all the answers for everyone.
Of course not! I wasn't asking you to give me my reasons. I was asking for your reasons.
obviously you don't hold any faith in God or the Bible, so it would be pointless for me to give you biblical answers to your questions.
Not sure whow you determined that...I've been looking into the Bible for 40+ years...if there is an answer in the Bible, please show it to me. If it answers the question, I'll believe it!
Not sure if you believe me or not, but I'm sincerely looking for reasons to have faith in God.
You see God as somehow not being loving because one of the beings he created (Satan) became evil
Not true - please re-read my posts. Here is my direct quote: "It would be enormously unloving of God to create within us the desire to understand, and then prevent us from doing so."
The reason being that although God could have created us with the inablity to sin, he would have had to do so by not giving us free will.
And I granted you that point. I am in agreement with it.
My question is not "why does evil exist?", but instead "why does evil exist to the degree it is allowed?" Why do 50 million children have to suffer and die slowly from malnutrition - couldn't the same point be made (whatever it is) by having just 1 million, or a few thousand, die instead?
The rest of your paragraph is an argument for why God would grant free will - which I am in agreement with.
Perhaps I haven't made my self clear - for that I apologize.
Let me condense my scattered ramblings into just one question - one for which I would be willing to listen (honestly! sincerely!) to any source for the answer - from the Bible, from Christian apologists, whatever:
Why would God, when he was alone and planning out the universe he would create, plan for a universe in which so much evil could be accomplished, in which so much suffering would be repeated over eons of time by billions of persons, if just one creature one time would use his free will the wrong way?
-
lovelylil
sir,
Thanks for clarifying your Q. My answer is this: I cannot possibly give you a satisfying answer to it because I only have a limited knowlege of God myself based upon my own understanding of the bible and the experiences in my life. Like I said in the beginning, I can't give you the answers you seek.
Why do I believe in God? That would take me years to explain. But in a nutshell, I've experienced his power in my life and he answered prayers for me many times. Please don't ask me why my prayers are answered and someone else's is not. Many have asked me this and I don't know for sure. I know I am not any more special than anyone else in the world. But I have always felt connected to God. I started praying at 5 and just instinctively knew there was a God.
Here is the story of my first prayer ever. I've been praying ever since this day. This is the first time I am EVER telling anyone about this. Not even my kids or my husband know this happened. Because this is something my dad did to me and I forgave him and raised my kids to love their grandfather. Even though he was a child abuser to me and my siblings many years.
Anyway, when I was 5, he got very angry at me. I can't remember why. But I do remember this; He beat me to a complete pulp, yes at 5! He then threatened to kill me and went into the kitchen and took out a butchers knife. He was going to slit my throat. He had threatened to do this on other occasions before I would go to bed at night. I don't know why he signaled me out but he used to say my eyes were demonic and scared him. I was home alone btw. Years later I found out he had some type of schizophrenic behavior and paranoia which explains his actions. And he was an addict on heroine. He could have flipped out because of all these reasons. I don't know but I ran around the house looking for a place to hide and could not find one in my panic. I was crying, scared to death. I still have nightmares about this day and wake up sweating and with heart palpitations. I prayed over and over to for God to save me. It was the first time I every prayed. My family was not religious. I ran to the door to leave our home but it was locked with a chain. I could not reach it. My dad was going room to room trying to find me and screaming all the while. I froze in complete terror by the door. I kept crying and praying for God to not let him kill me. I swear to you when I say this, I was crying very loud. There was no way he could not have heard me. And he walked past me at least 10 times and did not see me at all! At least twice he looked directly at me. But, he never found me.
Some may say he couldn't see me because he was high or mentally deranged. But I KNOW God somehow hid me. Later on I overheard my dad telling my mother that the reason I was spanked (that is what he called leaveing bruises all over) was that I went out of the house and he could not find me. She asked him, how could she have gotten out when I came home the latch (chain) was on the door? My dad said he didn't know but he looked for me for a half hour and I was not there. I HAD to have gotten outside but later showed up back inside again. He actually thought I climbed out and then back up a two story window.
This was my introduction to God. My life has been far from perfect though. I've had many challenges too. Just being in a cult for 12 years was a challenge. But you know, I look back on every bad thing in my life, including being a JW, and in the end it all worked out for my own good. I've learned many lessons and these things made me a better person. And somehow they all strenghtened my faith in God. God also helped my family out of the tower together. I don't know if you know this, but the day I told my hubby I wanted out of the org. he went upstairs to pack and leave me. Thats another story. I prayed for God to open his eyes to the WT without me saying anything and within a few months he did. I've learned to flex my prayer muscle so to speak after 35 years of doing it. And the more I pray, the more God hears me.
Anyway, like I said my personal experiences shaped my faith. But we are all different people and experience different things. Peace, Lilly