Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

lalliv01

Serotonin wraith,
I personally can't find fault with anything you've said. IMO, you're right, believers can't prove the existence of a god, a trinity of gods,
or a pantheon of gods,but you're arguing against people of FAITH. There's no argument against faith. Faith is not based on facts,
material objects,or even past or present events. Faith means believing in something that has no material or scientific proof. How can
you argue (help) someone like that? You can't because if you somehow manage to convince or convert that person then that person
never really had faith, you've accomplished nothing. I,personally, believe, and have faith, in a Creator because I just cannot believe
that the universe made itself.
I understand Stephen Hawkings is now theorizing that our universe was squeezed out, through a black hole, from an adjacent and
previously existent universe. Scientists,nobody,can answer my question. Therefore, I have faith accompanied by hope. Proof? None.
You well know that if I could introduce you to the Person which is God,then I would have NO NEED of faith, and neither would you.
lalliv01

Oh,by the way,I heard a British newscaster on T.V. the other day state that, rugby was the passtime,the game, they
played in heaven. Is that true? Naw! you don't believe in that heaven. *chuckles*
GentlyFeral

serotonin_wraith, all your arguments hinge on refuting biblical inerrancy. I believe about half the world's Christians have rejected this indefensible claim (sorry, mouthy).
I believe God's Word is in the Bible; I do not believe that everything in the Bible came from the mind of God. For instance, I am absolutely sure, from my life experience, that St. Paul was absolutely wrong about homosexuality as we now understand it. I could say more, much more, but that would risk hijacking this thread.
mouthy,
I really would like you to explain to this "nut" where did all the glorious things these old eyes has seen in 80 yearscome from please> Like flowers, animals, trees,babies,sunsets, I could go on & on as I am sure your intelligent eyes have seen..
I can no longer see a conflict between the creation story of Genesis (or anybody's creation story) and the evidence for the physical evolution of life. Long story short, I was reading Dawkins's The Blind Watchmaker a few years ago, and found myself thinking: "I wish God was real, because it takes an intelligent mind to properly appreciate the subtle, intricate beauty of the processes of evolution. To allow such vast, incredible unfolding to occur without supervision or inspiration offends my artistic sensibilities. It is a colossal waste of a good time." But that does not require that I believe the whole thing was done in under a week. It does not require me to believe that one species cannot give rise to another out of its own flesh. It does not even require me to believe that the Universal Soul planned everything out in advance. I have no reason not to believe that evolution is the method of creation.
I was trying to be an atheist then. But when I had finally proved to myself that there was no God – I heard God laughing. She thought it was cute.
You do make one valid point, though, serotonin_wraith: to swallow an entire body of doctrines whole, without straining them through your own experience, is indeed "to swallow a camel."
Who knows- maybe your future life rests in the hands of another god- there are thousands on offer, and the real one may not like you worshipping the Biblical god.
This, of course, is why I distrust all missionary efforts. If the true God (whatever that might be) wants me, he's going to have to come and get me himself.
I believe religion is holding us back
Tell that to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Desmond Tutu. Bishop Spong. The Dalai Lama. Yes, religion is holding some people back. Others take the ball -- Peach of Immortality, if you like -- and run with it toward the promised land. Somehow, this is relevant: "The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
gently feral
GentlyFeral

Satanus,
Many people need an institutional belief system for the whole duration of their lives. That's ok.
Why? If it is necessary for atheists to make sure the rest of us see the light?
gently feral
Satanus

GF

I'm not sure if i understand your question. What i mean, is that a lot of people have an emotional need for a group experience. They cannot strike out on their own.

S
Happy Harvester

nobody should insult, condemn or criticize what another person believes
Why not?
Don't we criticize what the JWs believe and how their beliefs cause them to act irrationally and hurtfully?
Ideas and beliefs that are irrational and that promote pain and suffering as the will of the immaterial supernatural beg to be criticized and questioned.
Happy Harvester

It's all good.
No, it's not.
Fundamentalism is not good.
Theocracy is not good.
The Crusades are not good.
Crucifiction is not good.
Self-abuse is not good.
Abusing others in the name of god is not good.
War justified in the name of the supernatural is not good.
Believing Armageddon or in human sacrifice is not good.
Beating children who don't sit quietly through a nasty sermon about hellfire or everlasting death is not good.
Bribery, witchhunts, and torture in the name of confession of real or imagined sins is not good.
Public executions for questioning the Taliban's restrictions are not good.
Blaming victims of illness for their lack of spirituality is not good.
Divisiveness of humanity reinforced by strict and irrational religiosity is not good.
Irrationality is not good and religion is irrational.
Period.
serotonin_wraith

lalliv01,
Faith is the fallback position, and it should not be held up as a virtue. There are a couple of ways to respond to the claim it is. Firstly, if faith is a virtue, could you name just one other thing apart from God you believe in with no evidence or reason? After some thought, you'll find there is nothing. You demand good reasons, and if there are none available, you will tend to think those who use faith in things such as faries, Zeus, invisible unicorns or reptiles living in the centre of the Earth are deluded. For some unknown reason, you don't stay consistent when it comes to God.
Secondly, where does it say faith is a virtue? The Bible. So you are using the Bible to believe in the Bible. This kind of circular reasoning is ridiculous.
We don't know what happened before the Big Bang. Until we find out, why not accept we don't know yet? What's so terrible about not having all the answers? You cannot know there is a god, so why act like you do know?
GentlyFeral,
Either the Bible is the word of God or it is not. If you concede there are errors in the Bible, then you cannot know which parts are true and which parts are not. It all comes down to what you want to be true. Take the rules against homosexuality- you cannot say your God didn't really mean they were sinning. On what could you possibly base that?
To take the story that God made Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago from dirt and a rib, and think that means God made it so humans would evolve from other species over millions of years is astounding. The genealogical line from Adam to Jesus falls apart, the idea Adam was the first man on Earth falls apart. Nobody sinned for thousands of years (oh, and none of the animals had names either!), and then in a magical garden two humans sinned and God suddenly gave the millions of other humans alive on the Earth shorter lifespans and set up a system in which they would all have to be redeemed? It was only just over 6,000 years ago that snakes weren't crawling on their bellies?
To think the account of the sun being created on the 4th day really means it was created millions of years BEFORE the Earth is astounding too. By wanting the Biblical god to be true, you're basically rewriting the Bible in your head!
writetoknow

So the test stone to reject Christ is what religion has done and for that reason there is no God?
Well let use the same test stone for marriage why do people get married if they look at the history of marriage?
Why do people have children if you look at children today?
Why to people look at government if we don't live a lie.
Why do people still look to science after the first atom bomb?
Why do people trust people when the earh is full of dishonest people?
Shall we go on for every suject under sun if disappoint is the cretria for rejections none of us would get out of bed in the morning.
People that walked away from the JW's are no different then people that became protestant during the dark age or the Jew's that were killed and rejected for becoming Christian.
To think ex JW's have been the only group mislead is living a lie there are thousands of ways to be mislead from school to war.
It a very smug attitude to think because some one is embittered because of JW's there is no God!
As stated above use your line of reasoning on any other subject. Let's talk about how many people are kill every year in autos. 99% of us don't give of up driving we look at the facts and realize taking the risk is worth it. So because being disappointed with JW's I am to give up on God - no I don't think it worth it because someone drove religion into a bunch of innocent people wanting to serve God.
I was looking for God when I end up in JW's and found Him just fine when I stop looking a people. He has never disappointed me never let me down just people that think they have it all figure out.
serotonin_wraith

So the test stone to reject Christ is what religion has done and for that reason there is no God?
No. The reason to reject Christianity is because the Bible has been disproven.
Do you say Zeus isn't real because you were lied to by the JWs? I doubt it. You just have no reason to believe in Zeus, so you don't. Does this make you smug? Not really. I apply the same rules to Yahweh.
If you could show me a car manual that instructs drivers to kill people you may have a case, but deaths caused by cars and other things are a bi product of their true function.
The Bible gives specific instructions on how to treat certain people. The verse 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' led to people being burned for hundreds of years. Homosexuals are still fighting to get gay marriage made legal because this disproven book says it is wrong.
You think you have an imaginary friend with you because you want to believe that. Life can be good at times, and bad at other times, but whatever happens, you still think God is with you. If your mother was shot in the head tomorrow, you'd still think God was with you. If you found money under a rock tomorrow, you'd probably think God led you to it. Anything at all could happen in your life, and I doubt it would have much effect on whether you believed in God. But you believe because you are ignoring the evidence and wanting it to be true. That's what it comes down to.

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

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