Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • writetoknow
    writetoknow

    Wow! self-righteous condemnation. Sorry partner most real Christain never thought about killing any one some did read the car maunal wrong. If your talking about a nation a government that once exited and had kings that ruled it like king David and others in the old testiment.

    Well look no further then all governments not many in the history of man did not go to war! So lets reject all government based on your subjective conclusion.

    So are you saying because some one dies there is no God? Because bad things happen to good and bad people that proves there is no God? By the way my Mother passed a number of years ago from cancers. No body in my family doubt God.

    All the gods of the past have blood tied in someway from their worship through government. No my friend God is no Santa Claus giving every one a life without problems your reading the wrong book the bible never states that.

    Life isn't fair with or without God if you have no God man would still do ugly act in some other name. Furthermore, you cannot prove there no God through your theory no more then you I can prove there is to people that have made you their mine.

    And your wrong to conclude that all people that have been rejected from some form of man's religion no longer believes there is a God many have better relationship and understanding of God. They realize God is not the Santa Claus and actually come to love Him more.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Read your manual again.

    Exodus 21:15
    "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.

    Exodus 21:17
    "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

    Exodus 22:19
    "Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.

    Exodus 22:20
    "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

    Exodus 31:14,15
    " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.
    For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

    Exodus 22:18
    "Do not allow a sorceress to live.

    Leviticus 20:10
    " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

    Leviticus 20:13
    " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    Leviticus 20:27
    " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

    Leviticus 24:14
    "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.

    Leviticus 24:16
    anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

    Deuteronomy 17:2-5
    If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.

    Deuteronomy 21:18-21
    If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

    Deuteronomy 13:2,5
    and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
    That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

    Killing is definitely justified in the Bible. While there are scriptures to show that the ritualistic laws may no longer apply, these moral laws still apply and were applied well after Jesus' time. You can find good things in the Bible, but there is no denying you can also find bad things. It can be used to justify anything. The fact that most Christians do not act this way doesn't come from a better understanding of the books, but rather their personal choice not to harm others. One cannot say the 'extremists' are going against what their holy books teach. They are not.

  • writetoknow
    writetoknow

    Which Nation Listed Did not Spill Blood - Zesus Worshipers?

    Chapter 15. The Worship of the Oak.

    THE WORSHIP of the oak tree or of the oak god appears to have been shared by all the branches of the Aryan stock in Europe. Both Greeks and Italians associated the tree with their highest god, Zeus or Jupiter, the divinity of the sky, the rain, and the thunder. Perhaps the oldest and certainly one of the most famous sanctuaries in Greece was that of Dodona, where Zeus was revered in the oracular oak. The thunder-storms which are said to rage at Dodona more frequently than anywhere else in Europe, would render the spot a fitting home for the god whose voice was heard alike in the rustling of the oak leaves and in the crash of thunder. Perhaps the bronze gongs which kept up a humming in the wind round the sanctuary were meant to mimick the thunder that might so often be heard rolling and rumbling in the coombs of the stern and barren mountains which shut in the gloomy valley. In Boeotia, as we have seen, the sacred marriage of Zeus and Hera, the oak god and the oak goddess, appears to have been celebrated with much pomp by a religious federation of states. And on Mount Lycaeus in Arcadia the character of Zeus as god both of the oak and of the rain comes out clearly in the rain charm practised by the priest of Zeus, who dipped an oak branch in a sacred spring. In his latter capacity Zeus was the god to whom the Greeks regularly prayed for rain. Nothing could be more natural; for often, though not always, he had his seat on the mountains where the clouds gather and the oaks grow. On the Acropolis at Athens there was an image of Earth praying to Zeus for rain. And in time of drought the Athenians themselves prayed, “Rain, rain, O dear Zeus, on the cornland of the Athenians and on the plains.” 1

    Again, Zeus wielded the thunder and lightning as well as the rain. At Olympia and elsewhere he was worshipped under the surname of Thunderbolt; and at Athens there was a sacrificial hearth of Lightning Zeus on the city wall, where some priestly officials watched for lightning over Mount Parnes at certain seasons of the year. Further, spots which had been struck by lightning were regularly fenced in by the Greeks and consecrated to Zeus the Descender, that is, to the god who came down in the flash from heaven. Altars were set up within these enclosures and sacrifices offered on them. Several such places are known from inscriptions to have existed in Athens. 2

    Thus when ancient Greek kings claimed to be descended from Zeus, and even to bear his name, we may reasonably suppose that they also attempted to exercise his divine functions by making thunder and rain for the good of their people or the terror and confusion of their foes. In this respect the legend of Salmoneus probably reflects the pretensions of a whole class of petty sovereigns who reigned of old, each over his little canton, in the oak-clad highlands of Greece. Like their kinsmen the Irish kings, they were expected to be a source of fertility to the land and of fecundity to the cattle; and how could they fulfil these expectations better than by acting the part of their kinsman Zeus, the great god of the oak, the thunder, and the rain? They personified him, apparently, just as the Italian kings personified Jupiter. 3

    In ancient Italy every oak was sacred to Jupiter, the Italian counterpart of Zeus; and on the Capitol at Rome the god was worshipped as the deity not merely of the oak, but of the rain and the thunder. Contrasting the piety of the good old times with the scepticism of an age when nobody thought that heaven was heaven, or cared a fig for Jupiter, a Roman writer tells us that in former days noble matrons used to go with bare feet, streaming hair, and pure minds, up the long Capitoline slope, praying to Jupiter for rain. And straightway, he goes on, it rained bucketsful, then or never, and everybody returned dripping like drowned rats. “But nowadays,” says he, “we are no longer religious, so the fields lie baking.” 4

    When we pass from Southern to Central Europe we still meet with the great god of the oak and the thunder among the barbarous Aryans who dwelt in the vast primaeval forests. Thus among the Celts of Gaul the Druids esteemed nothing more sacred than the mistletoe and the oak on which it grew; they chose groves of oaks for the scene of their solemn service, and they performed none of their rites without oak leaves. “The Celts,” says a Greek writer, “worship Zeus, and the Celtic image of Zeus is a tall oak.” The Celtic conquerors, who settled in Asia in the third century before our era, appear to have carried the worship of the oak with them to their new home; for in the heart of Asia Minor the Galatian senate met in a place which bore the pure Celtic name of Drynemetum, “the sacred oak grove” or “the temple of the oak.” Indeed the very name of Druids is believed by good authorities to mean no more than “oak men.” 5

    In the religion of the ancient Germans the veneration for sacred groves seems to have held the foremost place, and according to Grimm the chief of their holy trees was the oak. It appears to have been especially dedicated to the god of thunder, Donar or Thunar, the equivalent of the Norse Thor; for a sacred oak near Geismar, in Hesse, which Boniface cut down in the eighth century, went among the heathen by the name of Jupiter’s oak (robur Jovis), which in old German would be Donares eih, “the oak of Donar.” That the Teutonic thunder god Donar, Thunar, Thor was identified with the Italian thunder god Jupiter appears from our word Thursday, Thunar’s day, which is merely a rendering of the Latin dies Jovis. Thus among the ancient Teutons, as among the Greeks and Italians, the god of the oak was also the god of the thunder. Moreover, he was regarded as the great fertilising power, who sent rain and caused the earth to bear fruit; for Adam of Bremen tells us that “Thor presides in the air; he it is who rules thunder and lightning, wind and rains, fine weather and crops.” In these respects, therefore, the Teutonic thunder god again resembled his southern counterparts Zeus and Jupiter. 6

    Amongst the Slavs also the oak appears to have been the sacred tree of the thunder god Perun, the counterpart of Zeus and Jupiter. It is said that at Novgorod there used to stand an image of Perun in the likeness of a man with a thunder-stone in his hand. A fire of oak wood burned day and night in his honour; and if ever it went out the attendants paid for their negligence with their lives. Perun seems, like Zeus and Jupiter, to have been the chief god of his people; for Procopius tells us that the Slavs “believe that one god, the maker of lightning, is alone lord of all things, and they sacrifice to him oxen and every victim.” 7

    The chief deity of the Lithuanians was Perkunas or Perkuns, the god of thunder and lightning, whose resemblance to Zeus and Jupiter has often been pointed out. Oaks were sacred to him, and when they were cut down by the Christian missionaries, the people loudly complained that their sylvan deities were destroyed. Perpetual fires, kindled with the wood of certain oak-trees, were kept up in honour of Perkunas; if such a fire went out, it was lighted again by friction of the sacred wood. Men sacrificed to oak-trees for good crops, while women did the same to lime-trees; from which we may infer that they regarded oaks as male and lime-trees as female. And in time of drought, when they wanted rain, they used to sacrifice a black heifer, a black he-goat, and a black cock to the thunder god in the depths of the woods. On such occasions the people assembled in great numbers from the country round about, ate and drank, and called upon Perkunas. They carried a bowl of beer thrice round the fire, then poured the liquor on the flames, while they prayed to the god to send showers. Thus the chief Lithuanian deity presents a close resemblance to Zeus and Jupiter, since he was the god of the oak, the thunder, and the rain. 8

    From the foregoing survey it appears that a god of the oak, the thunder, and the rain was worshipped of old by all the main branches of the Aryan stock in Europe, and was indeed the chief deity of their pantheon. 9

  • writetoknow
    writetoknow

    You are reading what you want to prove your point. You stated that we must reject God because people where killed in the bible that is your standard for rejecting God.

    God never stated any where that He does not kill people. Nether does any govenment - you think because it is God you have a choice if He can kill people, but the same does not apply to the United States - you may not like it but it is a fact of life.

    I stated based on your theory one would have to reject most government in he history of man. I also stated there are millions of Chirstian that never believed they could kill anyone even JW's believe that - history is full of Chirstian that did not.

    You stated Zeus worshiper never killed anyone well that statement is false for some Zeus worshpers so we must reject Zeus as well.

    My point is you don't like Chirstain so make your point and I am stating what you judge will be judge back. If your condemnation was as rigtheous of all subject you perhaps could see the truth about all mans history.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith
    So are you saying because some one dies there is no God? Because bad things happen to good and bad people that proves there is no God? By the way my Mother passed a number of years ago from cancers.

    I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I'm saying that good and bad things happen to everyone regardless of whether or not they believe in a god, so there doesn't appear to be a god who is taking an interest in us personally.

    No body in my family doubt God.

    Nobody in a Muslim family doubts Allah. Nobody in a Mormon family doubts Jesus travelled to America. No one on Earth doubted our planet was flat before.

    All the gods of the past have blood tied in someway from their worship through government. No my friend God is no Santa Claus giving every one a life without problems your reading the wrong book the bible never states that.

    I'm saying that you have no reason to think God is with you through life. Why pray to God for help if you already know he doesn't involve himself?

    Christianity does have blood on its hands too.

    Life isn't fair with or without God if you have no God man would still do ugly act in some other name.

    So would you not lock up a murderer because another murderer is bound to come along anyway?

    Furthermore, you cannot prove there no God through your theory no more then you I can prove there is to people that have made you their mine.

    I don't quite understand what you've written here, but if you're saying I haven't disproved the Biblical God, can you please explain these:

    http://www.msu.edu/~heslipst/contents/ANP440/

    And your wrong to conclude that all people that have been rejected from some form of man's religion no longer believes there is a God many have better relationship and understanding of God. They realize God is not the Santa Claus and actually come to love Him more.

    I haven't said that. Now, if you can give me one more reason to believe in God over Santa, I will say no more.

    Direct me to some Zeus worshippers and I will speak to them about their unfounded beliefs.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    writetoknow, you are completely missing the points and putting things in my mouth which I have not said. I have to go out now, so I'll try to clear up this mess you've made when I get back. I'm wondering if it's worth it though. I think most who read this will be able to see what you're doing, and I'd rather not dumb myself down.

  • writetoknow
    writetoknow

    Ok I think I have your jest. 1.) the bible has been disproven, by who? 2.) the bible has been proven to those that believe in it.

    So faith is based on what you can see like love you can see people loving people? Will billions of people on this earth have confessed faith in God so there must be a God?

    So let see if I have it yet because you don't believe in God or you don't have enough faith there is a God then there is no faith or no God.

    So let put faith in your beliefs.

    "You think you have an imaginary friend with you because you want to believe that. Life can be good at times, and bad at other times, but whatever happens, you still think God is with you. If your mother was shot in the head tomorrow, you'd still think God was with you. If you "

    An imaginary friend is an imaginary belief. So you have an imaginary friend as well "No God" when judgment day comes will you still think there is "No God"?

    What your really stating your superior that your smarter then people that have faith and if they still believe in God they are foolish and weak minded. Your lack of faith can not produce good it produces distust and if you can get people to believe your way then your faith in your beliefs are reinforced.

    Sound much like what you excuse foolish Chirstain of.

  • lalliv01
    lalliv01

    S_W

    Faith is the fallback position, and it should not be held up as a virtue. There are a couple of ways to respond to the claim it is. Firstly, if faith is a virtue, could you name just one other thing apart from God you believe in with no evidence or reason? After some thought, you'll find there is nothing. You demand good reasons, and if there are none available, you will tend to think those who use faith in things such as faries, Zeus, invisible unicorns or reptiles living in the centre of the Earth are deluded. For some unknown reason, you don't stay consistent when it comes to God

    I don't recall saying faith is a virtue. What I was trying to say is that faith just IS and you can't knock it out of people. Cockroaches,lions, apes, none of these creatures

    have the ability to love,hate,to ponder their past or their future, or to exercise faith, only man has this ability, this trait. Nature,your nature,has endowed humans with

    this ability. Your debate is with nature,evolution,natural selection,whatever,not with mankind. All of mankind has this trait,like it or not.And we all exercise this trait at one

    time or another. Mankind would have to take a giant step if we are to ever be rid of this trait and we instead did everything in life based on "sound" logic. Imagine life where

    everything,everything, is done based on logic. I daresay, mankind would cease to exist. Of course, the Vulcans are still around.

    I also don't recall mentioning the bible in what I said. The circular reasoning is on your part I believe. You see, it's nature that made us this way,having faith is natural.

    You need to take it up with nature,your nature. And round and round it goes.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    writetoknow,

    You stated that we must reject God because people where killed in the bible that is your standard for rejecting God.

    I didn't.

    God never stated any where that He does not kill people. Nether does any govenment - you think because it is God you have a choice if He can kill people, but the same does not apply to the United States - you may not like it but it is a fact of life.

    How can I possibly think this if I don't believe in God?

    there are millions of Chirstian that never believed they could kill anyone even JW's believe that - history is full of Chirstian that did not.

    There are millions of JWs who do not abuse children and who have never been forced to prevent their children having blood, but their monetary contributions and insistence on converting people keeps the system alive in which these things do take place.

    I'm sure there have been some nice Thor worshippers but we don't lie to our children and tell them Thor controls thunder.

    You stated Zeus worshiper never killed anyone

    I did not say that.

    My point is you don't like Chirstain so make your point and I am stating what you judge will be judge back.

    An empty threat may work on you, but it does not work on me. There are nearly 3,000 gods available, so if there is a god, chances are you're worshipping the wrong one anyway.

    You don't care about those gods, because you have no reason to believe in them. Just as I have no reason to believe in yours.

    the bible has been disproven, by who?

    Modern science. Are you reading my posts at all? Did you click the link I gave you? I've already presented the evidence.

    the bible has been proven to those that believe in it.

    If it is 'proof' that only convinces themselves, it is more likely to be a delusion.

    So faith is based on what you can see like love you can see people loving people?

    Faith is believing in things with no reason at all.

    Will billions of people on this earth have confessed faith in God so there must be a God?

    Billions of people believing in something does not make it true. Did Jesus really return in 1914 because 6 million JWs think he did? Nope. Did a flying horse take Mohammed to heaven because millions of Muslims think it happened?

    So let see if I have it yet because you don't believe in God or you don't have enough faith there is a God then there is no faith or no God.

    Faith exists. There is no reason to believe in a god and I don't rule out the possibility completely (same with faries and fishes riding bicycles). As for the Christian God, this one has been disproven.

    So you have an imaginary friend as well "No God" when judgment day comes will you still think there is "No God"?

    Do you have imaginary friends called 'No Allah', 'No Thor', 'No Zeus', 'No Ra', 'No Apollo', 'No flying spaghetti monster', etc, etc? I'd laugh if you did. And again with the threats. How can there be a judgement day involving a disproven god? It must be terrible living life wondering if you're going to see tomorrow or not. I'm sorry you were fooled into believing that. The less people are paranoid about their minds being read by this 'thought policeman' the better off our species will be.

    What your really stating your superior that your smarter then people that have faith and if they still believe in God they are foolish and weak minded.

    Would you consider yourself smarter than someone who believed invisible pixies lived under their beds? I hope so.

    if you can get people to believe your way then your faith in your beliefs are reinforced.

    I don't use faith for anything. The evidence backs up my beliefs.

    lalliv01-

    What I was trying to say is that faith just IS and you can't knock it out of people.

    More people now are finding religion doesn't have a leg to stand on and are accepting reality. It's a personal decision, but unless people hear all the arguments they can't make an informed decision.

    Cockroaches,lions, apes, none of these creatures

    have the ability to love,hate,to ponder their past or their future

    There are many nature programs around that show animals do seem to care for others or hate when appropriate.

    or to exercise faith, only man has this ability, this trait.

    And in this sense we are certainly less evolved. Our brains have evolved to the point where we like to seek knowledge. Unfortunately, some of us cannot wait for evidence and like to make stuff up.

    Imagine life where

    everything,everything, is done based on logic. I daresay, mankind would cease to exist.

    Well Sweden is 90% atheist and they still seem to be around. We can use our imaginations and have emotions, sure. And we all seemed to cope okay when we left other gods behind through the ages. We grew intellectually when we did this.

    I also don't recall mentioning the bible in what I said. The circular reasoning is on your part I believe. You see, it's nature that made us this way,having faith is natural.

    Then it is also nature that leads to humans saying faith is a bad trait.

    I'm sorry if you weren't referring to Christianity. I assumed the title of the thread would have led the conversation down a Christian path. No worries.

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free
    Now all you have to do is escape the cult of Christianity.

    No. I don't have to do anything simply because you say so. I don't care if someone believes in God. I don't care if they don't. It's none of my business, just as it's none of yours.

    It's not about God. It's not about atheism. What I despise is anyone, of any persuasion, trying to shove their shit down the throats of others.

    W

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