What's Your Opinion of Waterboarding?

by minimus 112 Replies latest jw friends

  • minimus
    minimus

    Hill, regarding the Shia militia, you're right. THEY have switched sides. I wasn't referring to them regarding diplomacy. They can be bought by power and of course money.

    You still haven't explained exactly how YOU believe Bin Laden and Al Qaeda can resolve things diplomatically. If you were suggesting that all the USA has to do is get out of Saudia Arabia, that's obviously not all there is to it. Get out of Iraq. Stay away from Iran. Stop relations with Israel.....and the list goes on. I guess you think this all could be negotiable.

    Diplomacy worked well with Israel and the Palestians, huh?

    Regarding Israel, I think they continue to try diplomacy but as soon as they get bombed, they retaliate. A lot of diplomacy is bullsh*t.

  • HappyDad
    HappyDad

    dawg...........

    Maybe you need to be thrown into the midst of war to make you understand what is really happening. I wish that the draft would be enacted once again to show mealy mouth wimps like yourself in this country what real life survival in the midst of enemies is really like. You ............and others of your ilk need to be in the middle of firefights that make you cry for deliverance.

    You need to thank and support those young men who volunteer to support our way of life. Until then........just keep smelling your own ass that your head is stuck in.

    The comments about this have pissed me off to the point that this is my last comment here. You people are imposible.. You have come from a mind control cult as I have but you are not willing to progress to the next level.

    All you want to do is carp about everything..........without any real dialog as what is necessary to move on. You just want to feel good and to hell with reality.

    I'm done here. My life is fulfilled enough to move on and tell you bleeding hearts to kiss off. My life will be happy while you still swim in the swill of your past.

    Good by JWD

    HappyDad is gone...........life is too good and too short to associate with the losers of this forum.

    To the rest who are not losers but people happy in their growth in becoming a part of humanity once again........I love you and so does God. (yeah....I know......the losers will tell me that there is no God) .......peace in your life. In the meantime.......check in to JWD from time to time to see how these whining losers are still complaining and being part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

    HappyDad

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Minimus,

    Hill, regarding the Shia militia, you're right. THEY have switched sides. I wasn't referring to them regarding diplomacy. They can be bought by power and of course money.

    But it was diplomatic pressure through rewards that convinced them of the expediency of changing sides was it not. A year ago you would have claimed that there was no changing their viewpoints. That is the point that I am making, a similar point made with the IRA and Libya and their political changes.

    You still haven't explained exactly how YOU believe Bin Laden and Al Qaeda can resolve things diplomatically. If you were suggesting that all the USA has to do is get out of Saudia Arabia, that's obviously not all there is to it. Get out of Iraq. Stay away from Iran. Stop relations with Israel.....and the list goes on. I guess you think this all could be negotiable.

    I have already discussed this at great length. Everything is negotiable Minimus, everything. This is the lesson of history. Bin Laden has in the past agreed to send representatives under UN protection to the negotiating table. This is where it starts. Then compromise and rewards are offered and discussed, accords reached - this is the way it will happen in the end. The fact is that one cannot proclaim "it cannot work" until it is tried. This has not happened to any great degree in this issue as Bushists decry the value of diplomacy because they do not understand its language.

    Believe me there were many members of the IRA who were tougher and as idealistic as Bin Laden. Funky will tell you all about them. They were eventually, through the above means, won over. The tough, Thatcherite approach failed so badly that it took many by surprise.

    Diplomacy worked well with Israel and the Palestians, huh?

    Diplomacy HAS worked well ON OCCASION in the Middle East. The problem is that Israel has ignored agreements, ignored close to sixty UN resolutions and has been protected in its interests by the US who has since the late 60's vetoes DOZENS of UN resolutions. This is not diplomacy and has not won either the US or Israel friends in the region. What needs to happen is for the Arabs and Israel to be given a year to reach consensus after which identical economic embargoes should be placed on them both until agreement is forthcoming. Of course, the US will veto any such idea. This would be diplomatic embargo in action.

    Regarding Israel, I think they continue to try diplomacy but as soon as they get bombed, they retaliate. A lot of diplomacy is bullsh*t.

    For reasons noted above, Israel is by no means without blame for what has happened in the Middle East. Your point lacks value unless you accept this. HS

  • bisous
    bisous

    The United States has been prosecuting waterboarding as torture for many moons. I guess what is sauce for the goos doesn't always apply to the gander!

    Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime
    By Evan Wallach
    Sunday, November 4, 2007; B01

    As a JAG in the Nevada National Guard, I used to lecture the soldiers of the 72nd Military Police Company every year about their legal obligations when they guarded prisoners. I'd always conclude by saying, "I know you won't remember everything I told you today, but just remember what your mom told you: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." That's a pretty good standard for life and for the law, and even though I left the unit in 1995, I like to think that some of my teaching had carried over when the 72nd refused to participate in misconduct at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

    Sometimes, though, the questions we face about detainees and interrogation get more specific. One such set of questions relates to "waterboarding."

    That term is used to describe several interrogation techniques. The victim may be immersed in water, have water forced into the nose and mouth, or have water poured onto material placed over the face so that the liquid is inhaled or swallowed. The media usually characterize the practice as "simulated drowning." That's incorrect. To be effective, waterboarding is usually real drowning that simulates death. That is,

    the victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut. The main difference is that the drowning process is halted. According to those who have studied waterboarding's effects, it can cause severe psychological trauma, such as panic attacks, for years.

    The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.

    After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

    Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

    In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

    A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

    The United States (like Britain, Australia and other Allies) pursued lower-ranking Japanese war criminals in trials before their own tribunals. As a general rule, the testimony was similar to Nielsen's. Consider this account from a Filipino waterboarding victim:

    Q: Was it painful?

    A: Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious. Like drowning in the water.

    Q: Like you were drowning?

    A: Drowning -- you could hardly breathe.

    Here's the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:

    They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness.

    And from the second prisoner: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.

    As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas.

    More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture. The court awarded $766 million in damages, noting in its findings that "the plaintiffs experienced human rights violations including, but not limited to . . . the water cure, where a cloth was placed over the detainee's mouth and nose, and water producing a drowning sensation."

    In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."

    The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

    We know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture. That's a lesson worth learning. The study of law is, after all, largely the study of history. The law of war is no different. This history should be of value to those who seek to understand what the law is -- as well as what it ought to be.

    Evan Wallach, a judge at the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York, teaches the law of war as an adjunct professor at Brooklyn Law School and New York Law School.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170_pf.html

  • bisous
    bisous

    Some of the techniques we use were even forbidden by the German Gestapo until they were well along with their attempt at mass domination. If you read the history of their defence of their increasingly vile techniques, they use the fact of a budding "insurgency" which required more drastic measures to suppress.

    I really did have to chuckle about the tale of Omar Kadafy vs. Reagon.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Hillary..The use of such language against me is uncalled for. Using Ad hominems such as Ignorance, should you lack a brain , can't find my way out of the bathroom is no way to address me.

    If you check my post topics and responses over the past five years, you will note that I have never used such attacks on a persons character.

    You ask: Who the hell is reagan.. Ronald Reagan was president of the USA. from 1981 to 1989. He was a two term president. In 1986 Libya was involved in an attack on american soldiers in west berlin in a night club. Libya was involved in international terrorism during the Reagan presidency.

    When Reagan ordered the attack against Libya, Omar Kadafi / Muammar Qaddafi was behind the use of terrorism. A missle hit his home, in the bedroom where his daughter slept and killed her. This put a stop to Omar's terrorism at that time.

    This was nothing to chuckle about.

    I am not out to win an argument with you or anyone else on the topic that Minimus asked our opinion about. The opinons expressed by all are mixed.

    Some times we all mis - spell words.

    Blueblades

  • minimus
    minimus

    Let's suppose you get Bin Laden's guys to sit at the table. They are very clear that they want American interests out of Saudia Arabia. I'll stop there. That ain't gonna happen. When Bin Laden offers a "truce" with the condition that everyone will embrace Islam, it ain't gonna happen. So, they sit at the table and offer concessions. They'll stop car bombing if America gets out of the region. But the truth is, that won't happen for many obvious reasons.

    Regarding the IRA and Libya, these folks aren't close in danger compared to the countryless Al Qaeda operatives. The Irish freedom fighters were resolute in gaining their independence and after decades, everyone involved got to the point that they needed to compromise. Libya's sanctions took its toll and the Madman finally got it.

    Bin Laden isn't interested in the welfare of a country. He wants to make the world devotees of his brand of Islam. When all is said and done, if Bin Laden does budge on anything, what could it be? I'll say it again, the USA won't depart from the Middle East. So where does the resolution come in when that won't happen? And if you tell me that it COULD happen, my reply would be.....ok.

    And regarding Israel and the United States and Britain, they all share blame. But this is politics. No one is clean and pure.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Blueblades,

    Hillary..The use of such language against me is uncalled for. Using Ad hominems such as Ignorance, should you lack a brain , can't find my way out of the bathroom is no way to address me.
    It was when Reagon sent a bomb into Omar Kadafy's bedroom killing his daughter that Omar stopped his nuclear weapons program and terrorists acts against americans. No diplomacy there.

    Describing your post, which I quote above as stunning in its ignorance is not an ad hominem. It is a fact and shows an appalling lack of knowledge of the area that you seek to pontificate on. Why not do some research and reading, especially in political threads which require at least some level of knowledge of your subject before you post, that way your sensitivities can remain intact!.

    You clearly suggest that an event which took place almost twenty years before Libya stood down its nuclear program in April 1986 (the death of his adopted daughter at the hands of Ronald Reagan) was the reason for Libya abandoning its nuclear aims in 2003. An utterly foolish comment.

    When Reagan ordered the attack against Libya, Omar Kadafi / Muammar Qaddafi was behind the use of terrorism. A missle hit his home, in the bedroom where his daughter slept and killed her. This put a stop to Omar's terrorism at that time.

    No it did not. You are just making things up. This event did NOT stop Libya's backing of terrorism at that time. What did were the diplomatic and economic sanctions levied against him since 1986, and the carrott of financial help that was dangled before him in 2002. In 1998 Libya decided to cease its backing of terrorists, closing its terrorist training camps and expelling the Abu Nidal terrorist group. This was twelve years after his adpoted daughter was killed.

    Where do you get your information from?

    HS

  • JK666
    JK666

    min,

    I personally prefer wakeboarding to waterboarding.

    JK

  • minimus
    minimus

    Gee, Happy Dad doesn't seem too happy.

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