Bisous, "Our fearless leader" lies like Bill Clinton. The only difference is Clinton questions what "is" is.
They're all the same.
What's Your Opinion of Waterboarding?
by minimus 112 Replies latest jw friends
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hillary_step
Minimus,
Hillary, I support dialogue and diplomacy before reaction. Do you honestly believe Bin Laden and his brothers actually can reach a fair consensus by talking and trying to work things out?
Bin Laden has clearly stated what will happen if America and its allies did not respond. He refuses to work things out and so do his cronies. So please, tell me how in practical terms, diplomacy is possible with persons of this mentality. (And if you can give us the perfect solution, I will see to it that the President hears about you).
This is the way diplomacy works:
All sides acknowledge that eventually every conflict, however extreme and bloody ends up at the table of negotiation. The purpose of the diplomat is to move the table of negotation closer and together brings heads of agreement.
Given your sense of hoplessness in dealing with extreme factions like Bin Laden, I wonder how you would have achieved peace in Ireland? Thatcher tried it your way and look what happened. Other more flexible minds saw that the only way forward was a diplomatic one. Guess which one worked?
I also mentioned Libya, who for thirty years had funded terrorism, been involved in outrageous terrorist attacks on civilians and were manufacturing nuclear weapons. They stood down their nuclear ambitions without a shot being fired. How did that happen? Diplomacy of course.
Now, let us turn our attention to Al Quaeda. The attacks on the US and US interests that have taken place the past fifteen years have been due to one issue alone. Bin Laden wants the US military to leave Saudia Arabia and has vowed to fight the US until this happens. To him, US troops in Saudia Arabia are the equivalent of the Roman Legions in the courtyard of the Temple in Jerusalem to a Jew.
His focus has never changed. As early as the beginning of this year he continued to acknowledge that as soon as the US military left Saudia Arabia, Al Quaeda would stand down all its operations against the US. This is the point of conflict that should be bought to the bargaining table and thrashed out.
The problem with the Bush Administration and many Americans these days is that they are completely myopic when it comes to life outside their boundaries, inflexible when it comes to compromise, and plain stupid when it comes to legislation. This chemical mix has made the most powerful tool any government has, diplomacy, a dirty word in America these days.
Cheers - HS
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minimus
Hillary, you're leaving a few things out of the equation. That is not the only thing Bin Laden is vexed over.He has repeatedly expressed that he wants everyone to be under Islamic rule of law. EVERYONE! He wants no American presence anywhere! He wants America to convert to his brand of Islam. It's NOT just about Saudia Arabia, and I believe you know that. It has blossomed into his vision of worldwide theocracy.
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nvrgnbk
completely myopic when it comes to life outside their boundaries, inflexible when it comes to compromise, and plain stupid when it comes to legislation
He wants America to convert to his brand of Islam...It has blossomed into his vision of worldwide theocracy.
Does GWB want the world to be Christian?
Or does he want to be the catalyst to Armageddon?
Has he ever suggested that he is Cyrus the Great?
Does he have his own vision of worldwide theocracy?
All fundamentalists pose a danger to peaceful resolution of human conflict.
Both Bin Laden and Bush are proponents of very violent belief systems.
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hillary_step
Minimus,
Hillary, you're leaving a few things out of the equation. That is not the only thing Bin Laden is vexed over.He has repeatedly expressed that he wants everyone to be under Islamic rule of law. EVERYONE! He wants no American presence anywhere! He wants America to convert to his brand of Islam. It's NOT just about Saudia Arabia, and I believe you know that. It has blossomed into his vision of worldwide theocracy.
....and the IRA wanted a socialist control of Northern Ireland. Libya wanted a nuclear bomb to threaten the West With. Ideologies come and go Minimus. Time takes care of most of them because sensible people realize that you cannot bomb an ideology out of existence, it actually causes it to grow if this course is followed.
He wants America to convert to his brand of Islam...It has blossomed into his vision of worldwide theocracy.
One could argue that though he planted the seeds, the invasion of Iraq watered the plant. This is why an honest person would accpet faults on both sides and work to a diplomatic solution, where as I have said, these things ALWAYS end up anyway.
Bin Laden, this year promised to stand down Al Quaeda's attacks on the West if the US Military leaves Saudia Arabia. This is the starting point for negotation and diplomacy, the wedge that needs to be developed. That he adheres to a loonie ideology and will for the rest of his life is not valid, as loonie ieologies are not mutually exclusive to fanatical Islamists. Did you know that 75% of Americans polled by TIME believe that the second coming is imminent and that 90% claim a belief in God and that 40% believe that AIDS is sent by God to deal with homosexuals? These are dangerous times requiring cool heads, critical thinking and compromise. The White House Administration have proved themselves singularly incapable of achieving any of these necessary skills for a variety of reasons, some deliberate, most through a stunning level of incompetence. What does not help the situation is that in the US you seem to be dealing with a voting public who have the attention span of a gnat and the political intelligence of another gnat. God bless democracy! HS -
Blueblades
It was when Reagon sent a bomb into Omar Kadafy's bedroom killing his daughter that Omar stopped his nuclear weapons program and terrorists acts against americans. No diplomacy there.
So, when you are personally shown on the worldwide web with your head covered and about to have your head slowly cut off has as been done to some in recent years, what would your views be, what would your family say about how to deal with this kind of enemy.
Not to long ago Japan and Germany wanted to conquer the world and change our way of living. We bombed and did what was necessarry to achieve victory and preserve our way of life.
Blueblades
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Gopher
It was when Reagon sent a bomb into Omar Kadafy's bedroom killing his daughter that Omar stopped his nuclear weapons program and terrorists acts against americans. No diplomacy there.
I know America bombed Tripoli then. But I hadn't heard of this event where the leader's daughter was killed. Do you have a reference on that?
So, when you are personally shown on the worldwide web with your head covered and about to have your head slowly cut off has as been done to some in recent years, what would your views be, what would your family say about how to deal with this kind of enemy.
Terrorism has been a threat for decades. Israeli athletes were taken hostage during the 1972 Olympics in Munich. Americans were taken hostage for over a year at the Tehran Embassy in 1979-80. Hostages took control of planes and tried to wreak havoc on society. The question is how best to deal with it, to prevent gut-wrenching scenes like the one you describe here.
Not to long ago Japan and Germany wanted to conquer the world and change our way of living. We bombed and did what was necessarry to achieve victory and preserve our way of life.
The Geneva conventions do not apply to standard warfare. World War 2 was a hugely tragic, but very necessary use of American and Allied force.
However, wasn't Soviet-bloc communism also viewed as a major threat to the world and our way of living between the late 40's and the late 80's? America and the West won the "cold war" through means other than bombs and openly-sanctioned torture (not to dismiss that some of that may have happened, but it wasn't the MAJOR way the cold war was won).
America used strategic, financial and even diplomatic means to squeeze the Soviets and win the Cold War. America has bright minds who could come up with some means to outflank the terrorists, who in perspective -- are a bunch of small terror cells, and less of a threat than the nuclear threat posed by the former Soviet Union superpower.
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hillary_step
Blueblades,
It was when Reagon sent a bomb into Omar Kadafy's bedroom killing his daughter that Omar stopped his nuclear weapons program and terrorists acts against americans. No diplomacy there.
You are displaying an unbelievable, if not staggering ignorance. Shaking head.
Gaddafi lost his daughter in 1986. In 2003 he agreed to stand down his nuclear ambitions. This, should you lack a brain was almost TWENTY years later and had NOTHING to do with the death of his daughter. By diplomatic means, Libya was promised a huge financial incentive to stand down its nuclear program.
I am astonished how some of you can find your way out of your bathrooms. Who the hell is Omar Kadafy anyway? Come to think of it who the hell is Reagon?
Still shaking head....
HS
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minimus
Has the USA been guilty of imperialism? Have they tried to take advantage of areas over the years so as to get a foothold and protect their own interests?? Of course. Is America blameless and innocent? Nope. America tries to have its hand everywhere a cookie jar exists.
If you believe Bin Laden's promises, that is up to you. I don't exactly trust the man. He wants America out of anything that he percieves should be Islamic. If he had his way, all countries would bow to Allah. He doesn't want American forces in the Middle East. In the real world, just because Osama and his friends tell the USA to leave, it ain't gonna happen!
For diplomacy to work, TWO sides must REASONABLY compromise. Bin Laden and company see things in their own little world. They encourage believers in their ideology to kill "infidels" by blowing themselves up. How does a diplomat deal with this type of mentality?
You say that for centuries, diplomacy has settled things. When thugs take over their people and others, no diplomacy will work if the adherents of the takeover refuses to listen, to bargain, to act responsibly and reasonably. Diplomacy didn't work for Hitler, Idi Amin, and many other dictators. The only thing that worked was their demise.
I believe if Osama was terminated, it wouldn't end the Al Qaeda ideology. Fanatics will abound no matter what.
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hillary_step
Minimus,
If you believe Bin Laden's promises, that is up to you. I don't exactly trust the man. He wants America out of anything that he percieves should be Islamic. If he had his way, all countries would bow to Allah. He doesn't want American forces in the Middle East. In the real world, just because Osama and his friends tell the USA to leave, it ain't gonna happen!
It is not necessary for anybody to believe anyone elses promises for diplomatic talks to take place. That is not the purpose of setting up a diplomatic station. It is to find an entry point and work from this. Bin Laden has made it clear in the past that he will send representatives to discuss these issues. That is all that is needed to start the process of compromise and for diplomatic talks to begin.
For diplomacy to work, TWO sides must REASONABLY compromise. Bin Laden and company see things in their own little world. They encourage believers in their ideology to kill "infidels" by blowing themselves up. How does a diplomat deal with this type of mentality?
The compromises take place at the table of diplomacy, not on the "battlefield". As I have already pointed out, in the weeks before these meetings are covenened there is usually an upturn in violence as each side tries to gain the upper bargaining hand. You just do not understand how these processes take place, despite my giving examples of equally heartless, ruthless and committed terrorist groups, some with equally insane tenets as fanatical Muslims, working their disagreements out diplomatically.
You say that for centuries, diplomacy has settled things. When thugs take over their people and others, no diplomacy will work if the adherents of the takeover refuses to listen, to bargain, to act responsibly and reasonably. Diplomacy didn't work for Hitler, Idi Amin, and many other dictators. The only thing that worked was their demise.
Wars are fought. All wars eventually lead to the diplomatic table. It happened with The Third Reich also. The present White House Administration broke the first rule of the diplomacy, war as a LAST resort.
As I say I am not sure that you understand the structures of political diplomacy and how they work.
For example, in recent months Shia militia fighting WITH Al Queada have switched sides and are fighting with the US and have Al Quaeda on the run in their part of the country. The reason this is happening is that due to diplomatic means they have been offered a bigger slice of the Iraqi cake in future years. A few months ago you might have called this impossible Minimus. But it has happened and has NOT happened due to military intervention.
HS