by minimus 112 Replies latest jw friends
TERRORISTS do not deserve any rights under any law or convention (such as Geneva) Their only goal is to kill you..........even if it means torture until you die.
I believe you just condemed the founding fathers of the US with that statement. They used a forms of improper warfare when they were losing the war to the British.
I respectfully disagree with the following assertions of HappyDad:
- That anyone who disagrees with how our government is conducting a war is unpatriotic or wants the other side to win
- That anyone concerned with the constitutionality and international perception of a torturing America must therefore be AGAINST the soldiers.
My main points are (1) I am not convinced that interrogation by torture yields usable or life-saving intelligence, and (2) if we're fighting for a principle of freedom and democracy, then America needs to conduct this war without violating international law. That second point is also made by John McCain, a Vietnam veteran. Was he unpatriotic for introducing anti-torture legislation into Congress a couple years back?
I love America and want to see it prosper, and so do HappyDad and Minimus who hold a different view than I do on this waterboarding issue. We just happen to disagree on how to accomplish that goal. Some say we need to respect the Geneva conventions, others say shuck it in this case. It's an important debate, but disagreeing with our civilian leaders in the administration does not make one unpatriotic.
There are times on this board that I really can't believe my eyes, this thread is one of those times. Good lord people, why is it you tell others to "pull their heads out of their asses" and then sound like Rush Limbaugh himself?
How is it a person can leave a cult where they're dictated inaccurate informaion and then turn to Rush Limbaugh as if he has the truth. Good God... Everyone of you that defended torture are parroting Rush, I know becasue I listen to him almost everyday. And guess what? Rush is an absolute idiot who preys on people's sense of superiority, when clearly they have none-they just want to feel they have all the answers. If you think that Rush is worthy of quoting, then I truly feel really sorry for you. You'd think you guys whom have supported the Bush administration would have a little humility Especally after this fiasco of a war that you geniuses have gotten us into. Come on guys, after this war do you really think you have an intellectual leg to stand on?
Riddle me this Bush supporters, what about the war in Iraq did the Bush team ever get right? Nothing! And who was parroting Bush, Rush and his supporters... So, now that you know that torture doesn't render correct information, you then parrot Rush and the Bush team... all in the name of "these terrorists want to kill you"... no crap genius, you think we don't know that? SO, becasue terrorists want to kill me does that mean i sould take a terrorist "suspect" and torture them until they give me incorrect information? No, becasue that doesn't stop them from wanting to kill me nor does it help me capture terrorists... THE FREAKING INFORMATION ISN'T CORRECT!
Then, after you should have been swayed by the evidence you have to make up scenerios that don't exist to defend your position... "if they knew where a bomb was planted and you know by torturing them" kinds of scenerios, Good freaking gracious, that isn't what we're talking about-the people they're torturing aren't in those situations... do you guys even know what rendition is?
To the guy that said "go ahead and take my head off". You're right we should attack your argument becasue its rediculous. Do you guys not understand the rule of the law, do you not understand that innocent people are being tortured at times... and what about the principles this nation's supposed to stand for? They mean nothing to you "patriots"... honestly, you all that have defended torture should be ashamed of yourselves... this has to be the most black white issue this administration has ever broached. I truly don't believe my ears sometimes... what happend to you people along the way?
MAybe it was this, when you were JWs you felt superior-you had the truth and no one could quesiton you... you defended it at all costs...but one day you woke up.. Maybe you guys are caught in that mental rut. I have hope that one day Bush defenders will one day realizse just how much damage this administration has done this country. But when I read defenses of torture, that freaking tops the cake....
Minimus,
Diplomacy doesn't work.
Just as an aside, I have heard this statement uttered so often the past few years that it takes on the mantle of Goebbels statement that if you utter a lie enough times people start to believe it.
Every war, every situation of conflict throughout history has ALWAYS ended up at the table of diplomacy. The reason countries try hard to get the upper hand in a conflict when diplomatic talks are scheduled is to gain a stronger bargaining position. I would be interested to hear of any war that did not end around a table.
Diplomacy does work. For example, though Rumsfeld made the statement that the US would "never talk to terrorists" diplomatic talks have never ceased between ALL factions and were taking place even as he went public with that statement. In recent times Shiah militia, who have been fighting against the US and with Al Queada have changed their alliegance on the understanding that in a "new" Iraq they will gain a greater share of power. This change was wrought by diplomatic means.
They have also made it plain that once they have dealt with Al Queda they will turn their attention to the US troops in Iraq if they do not leave.
Another example. Libya gave up its ambitions to possess nuclear weapons without a shot being fired. How? By diplomacy.
I am not sure that you understand the nature of the diplomats brief.
HS
Happy Dad: Please put me on your "bleeding heart liberal" list and feel free to post it on this forum anytime.
changeling
I'd like to waterboard the entire staff of the Governing Body until they renounced their evil deeds. Then we could proceed to kneecap cracking. Perhaps a few rounds with the thumbscrew might be in order. And then the Comfy Chair!
A man wants to murder your children, and you fret about whether he will be offended by the dust on the floor of your foyer when he arrives at your house.
By the grace of Allah (may his name be praised), there will be no America left to offend your grandchildren.
Heres an idea,
Lets get who ever is comfortable using these techniques to use them on Bush and Cheney... getting them to admit they have totally screwed up this country.
Wonder how long either one of them would last, and how fast they would admit it is indeed torture!
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
r.
Just because some of us do not believe that torture is a reliable means of getting information,
does not mean we side with the terrorists.
We are well aware that terrorists have the ability to attack, and do attack.
I support a strong use of force like recon and special ops, missions, etc. to find them and disable their ability to harm anyone else..
I just don't think that torturing another captive human being is logical and moral.
Why do I say that? Because psychopaths use torture. Terrorists use torture. Why stoop to their level of depravity?
Torture is a form of terrorism, because it insights fear and terror as a means to either cause suffering/low morale or to extract information.
Just because some feel justified in using it on ''the enemy'', well the enemy feels just as justified on using it on ''the infidel''.
so who is right?
Is it because the Interrogator slash Torturer is American, that they are in the right for using torture?
But if the terrorist group uses torture to get information or just for the sake of causing suffering
they are deemed evil and deserving of death, correct?
Double standard. Don't you think?
I have to say I'm getting quite sick of hearing people spout off claiming anyone who does not support the use of torture as "letting the terrorists win". Oh please...
It's a fact, terrorism was an issue before 9/11 and always will be an issue no matter how much Bush claims he can get rid of it. Since this so-called war on terror began has the world become a safer place? It hasn't, it's more of an issue now than it ever was.
Wake up people!
