I'm converting again. (page 8)

nicolaou

Why all the people who are fed up with organized religion think I should be fed up too, I don't understand.

Can only speak for myself Renee, but it's because I care - honestly. I hate to see people suckered by institutions of any sort be they religious, political, commercial, military or anything else. I hate falsehood. I hate lies. I hate delusion. I hate false promises and easy answers.

You may well enjoy the company of your congregation and clearly it sounds like you've found a good social network amongst kind and like minded people - great. But why spoil it all by adding god and religion into the mix?

To borrow a quote from Douglas Adams, "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

BurnTheShips

have to press this for your children's sake, and you kinda left the private debate/chat we were having a while back. This religion seems to be what you need/want, and if so, good for you. But can you please allow your children to know about other beliefs, not just yours? I really don't think it would be fair on them to only know about what you believe. They're not you.

Hi Sero!

Can I take that to mean that as an atheist you will also educate your children in the glory and mystery and truth of the Christian religion! My I do believe I have underestimated you!

Unfortunately Atheists don't seem to procreate very well. The more secular/atheist a country is, the lower the birth rate is. I do believe Britain and W Europe are in the early stages of a rather steep demographic decline. Atheism appears to be an evolutionary dead end, hence the desire on their part to educate believers' children in their ideologies against their parents' will.

Burn.

serotonin_wraith

Burn,

If I have children, I will tell them about all kinds of religious beliefs. I will let them decide what to believe, if anything. If I force my kids to be atheist, I will be no better than the parents who indoctrinate their kids with religion.

Unfortunately Atheists don't seem to procreate very well. The more secular/atheist a country is, the lower the birth rate is. I do believe Britain and W Europe are in the early stages of a rather steep demographic decline.

I don't know anything about that. Any chance of some evidence?

Atheism appears to be an evolutionary dead end

It's a lack of belief, not a gene that's not getting passed on. I was raised a Christian, yet turned out to be atheist. Go figure. I don't want to indoctrinate Renee's kids, I want EVERY kid to be given the opportunity to explore everything for themselves and make their own decisions. Not have those decisions influenced by what the parents believe, as happens in many religious families.

reneeisorym

The point of wanting them raised in a church that focuses on education is so that they can learn to make up their own minds. What I don't want is for them to go to the Baptist church I've been going to where their life time members sound like they are in a bubble and oblivious to the outside world. I want them to learn critical thinking. I want to ask them why they believe stuff and not just do it because I do it. I know a young lady who says her mother "examined all the religions after reading the Bible and found the assembly of God church to be the true church" .. That's not reason enough!

I hate to see people suckered by institutions of any sort be they religious, political, commercial, military or anything else. I hate falsehood. I hate lies. I hate delusion. I hate false promises and easy answers.

Excuse me ... who is suckered? What harm is being done by me going to church? What lies am I being suckered into? What false promises or easy answers am I getting from this "religion"???

Maybe you are the one suckered.

serotonin_wraith

Renee,

What will your reaction be if they don't believe, and they want out?

Bear in mind that they have to know they can let you know this first. I know as a JW kid I had to pretend I loved it oh so much.

(And, will you be teaching them other beliefs too?)

reneeisorym

What will your reaction be if they don't believe, and they want out?

The same as it is with my mother. My mother (at this point) doesn't want to be a Christian but has left the JWs.

I love her so very much. I call her every day and hold her dear to my heart. Just because she doesn't see things the same way I do, doesn't make me reject her. I hope one day she will have a relationship with God but I can't live her life for her. I have to rest and leave the matter between her and God. It's my job just to love her.

I plan to have the same attitude when my kids get older. I will certainly take them to church when they are little ones but when they get old enough to make their own decisions, I'll certainly allow it. Ultimately, I can't force them to do anything. What I don't want is for them to grow up not knowing enough about the Bible so they can't be taken in by religions such as Mormons and JWs out of pure ignorance. Whatever decision they make, I hope it is an informed one.

I'm not going to teach them about other faiths. I wouldn't forbid thier investigating at ALL -- But I learned about other faiths without my parents teaching me so it can be done. If they want to know, they can go visit other churches or at home if they wish to investigate via the internet or books. They way I see it, a faith is much stronger if tested.

serotonin_wraith

Renee,

With your mother, is it always at the back of your mind that she's without a belief in a god? It seems like it could be a wall between what your relationship could be. Let's not forget there's no reason to think you've found the true creator of the universe where billions of others have failed throughout history. To even assume that could be seen as arrogant.

I'm not sure what you consider the 'older' age to be, but I do think you should give your children more credit than you may be. I knew at a very young age that the JW religion wasn't for me. It was only when I was 'older' I could do something about it without worrying what my parents would be like. I would have done it much earlier, had I had the choice.

Don't the following comments contradict each other?

Whatever decision they make, I hope it is an informed one.

I'm not going to teach them about other faiths.

As their parent, they will look to you for guidance first. Perhaps you should at least let them know there are other beliefs in the world, and show them how they can research them on their own. You wouldn't have to do it for them, but you could help them start their journey. You can also tell them that what you believe is what you believe, not that it is 100% true. Different people have different ideas about what is 'true'. How you explain your beliefs to them could affect how they think. Otherwise they may end up believing what you believe, simply because you are their parent and you had a greater influence on them than you realized.

reneeisorym

Don't the following comments contradict each other?
Whatever decision they make, I hope it is an informed one.
I'm not going to teach them about other faiths.

NO... I can encourage them to learn but by educating them myself about these subjects, I will be giving them a biased view. I'll simply teach them my own and then let them discover other beliefs with their own experiences/reading.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that I want them to go to a church that is educating them vs. going to a church that is just inspiring them every Sunday?

Just as I can't force them to be "Presbyterian", I can't force them to study other religions either. I can simply accept them for whatever they want to be. I can only hope that I have children who are interested in asking the hard questions in life.

jgnat

Serotonin, you are badgering the "witness". You assume that all religions are dangerous. I would challenge you that all societies have restrictions and memberships of some kind. When people get together, they make rules of behavior. Just because they have rules does make them dangerous or "bad".

I suggest that it is the degree of control or sublimation of the individual that makes a particular society more damaging than others.

Presbyterian? They wouldn't even blink if renee left their organization. And they would freely fellowship with her afterwards. I can't say the same for the Witnesses.

And what is wrong with raising a child with your personal set of beliefs? You parent who you are anyways. That is what the child is going to grow up believing. I met some boys from a family who believed in exposing them to all religions. That approach did not help the boys at all. They ended up rootless and cynical. They saw no truth in anything.

BurnTheShips

I don't know anything about that. Any chance of some evidence?

Have they had you locked in a dark closet for the last 10 years? Or are you just stalling?

Here!

and

Here, in your own country's media!

Honestly, google it, there is so much material on the subject you will retch at the conclusions: Your secularly-induced enervation is destroying you. You cut off your roots then you wonder why your leaves shrivel. Atheism is making inroads here in my home country too, only not as far along. Since you have lost sight of eternity, and since the natural reaction to that is to "eat drink and be merry for tommorrow we'll die", you've become a weak tribe. You've had to import labor from the south and east to replace your low birth rates. Continue on your path, and you'll never have to worry about Christianity again! What progeny escapes your abortion factories will be forced to bow to Mecca under threat of the sword.

It's a lack of belief, not a gene that's not getting passed on.

You spout Dawkins yet you don't get it? Its not the genetics, its the memetics. And ideas affect behavior. The stronger ideas prevail. Atheism produces weak tribes. Weak tribes die out.

Burn

I'm converting again.

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