I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym 125 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Renee,

    I can only hope that I have children who are interested in asking the hard questions in life.

    I hope so too. I hope they're not brainwashed into being a part of your religion because you tell them it's true, and as children, they trust you. If they do join up, I'd want it to be because they looked at all the alternatives in an ubiased environment.

    jgnat,

    I understand some religions are more dangerous than others. I'm making the point that if a child isn't given free reign to explore other beliefs, without thinking they're going against what's 'true', this can affect what they come to believe. Ever wondered why it's mostly Muslims who end up having children who become Muslim, and it's mostly Christian parents who have children who become Christian? The link is obvious.

    And what is wrong with raising a child with your personal set of beliefs?

    Well it depends on what beliefs are being told. If you knew a family was teaching their children the Earth was flat and that the sun went around us, would this not bother you? Wouldn't you feel any pity at all for the innocent children who were being taught this, and believing it because they were too young to know any different?

    I met some boys from a family who believed in exposing them to all religions. That approach did not help the boys at all. They ended up rootless and cynical. They saw no truth in anything.

    Or maybe they're just skeptics about things they don't know, and they're not ignorant enough to claim they do know.

    Burn,

    Honestly, google it, there is so much material on the subject you will retch at the conclusions: Your secularly-induced enervation is destroying you.

    Thank you for the evidence, it's all I asked for (but you bit my head off!) From information I've seen, the fastest growing religious group is the non religious. Nope, the non religious are not actually a religion, but they're included whenever surveys are done talking about religious beliefs. I could provide evidence, but Honestly, google it, there is so much material on the subject you will retch at the conclusions. Needless to say, I'm not worried about atheists dying out.

    Since you have lost sight of eternity, and since the natural reaction to that is to "eat drink and be merry for tommorrow we'll die", you've become a weak tribe

    Actually, it makes me see that if this life is all we have, we should treat it as special and rare. With an eternity in heaven to come, I may be tempted to think it's you who shouldn't really give a crap about this miniscule time on Earth. Looks pretty insignificant compared to what you think is to come.

    What progeny escapes your abortion factories ...

    You're assuming I'm for abortion. I actually think many of the reasons people give for having abortions are pitiful. Remember, atheism says nothing about what I DO believe.

    Its not the genetics, its the memetics. And ideas affect behavior. The stronger ideas prevail.

    Makes sense. This must be why every religion seems to die out, given enough time. If not, it certainly has to evolve to fit with the times.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    If you have a need fill it. Just dont write your mind out as a blank check like we saw many do with the WT.

    God Bless you

    ~Hill

  • Junction-Guy
    Junction-Guy

    Renee, I think it is great that you are searching around for a church, Im glad that the presbyterians are working out for you.

    Dont listen to these Atheists that will try to drag you down, do whatever you feel is necessary for you and your children. As long as they arent in a Cult, then they will be fine.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    serotonin, you are so intent on your mission, I don't think you are aware of how preachy you sound. You are full of biases yourself. Teaching is not indoctrination! Unbiased parenting? Impossible! Children generally grow up to share the beliefs of their parents? Shocking!

    Well it depends on what beliefs are being told.

    You gave some examples of inaccurate or ill-supported beliefs, such as "The earth is flat". Do keep in mind that such beliefs, though wrong, are not life-threatening or dangerous. There is broadcast interest and stories about Santa, and generally that belief is benign. Religions also teach ill-supported and illogical morals such as "help a stranger in need", "do good to others even at great personal cost".

    Who is the arbiter on what beliefs should be taught and what should be discarded?

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith
    I don't think you are aware of how preachy you sound

    Is this a negative thing, comparing me to religious preachers?

    Do keep in mind that such beliefs, though wrong, are not life-threatening or dangerous.

    So you'd be cool with parents teaching their children falsehoods? Okay, well I think their minds should be protected aswell as their bodies, so we'll have to agree to disagree there.

    There is broadcast interest and stories about Santa

    ...and if it carries on into adulthood, we're tempted to get these people help.

    Religions also teach ill-supported and illogical morals such as "help a stranger in need", "do good to others even at great personal cost".

    They're not illogical - and religion isn't needed to teach them.

    Who is the arbiter on what beliefs should be taught and what should be discarded?

    Things that are true should be taught, and things that are untrue should not be presented as fact. Someone like Obves or Jcanon can speak about their beliefs concerning the end of the world, and you can laugh and shrug it off. No one's making you believe it. But what if their children are taught it? Being young, they cannot know it's a lie or something the parent has just got wrong. They'll believe it.

    I wish religions were just about good morals, but it goes much deeper than that. Things are taught that cannot possibly be known, like who will live for an eternity and who will not, and which is the real god - which assumes there is one to begin with.

    Yet you think I'm being completely unfair.

    All I'd have to do is change some names around to show you how silly it is.

    There's a giant pink jellyfish living in a nearby galaxy. It created this galaxy, and our planet and the life on it. To show appreciation, we must sing songs to the jellyfish every Friday, and speak to the jellyfish each night before bed.

    If someone was teaching their children that, you'd probably have a problem with it. The children would be victims, going along with it because their minds are young. But change it to another belief which has just as much evidence behind it (i.e. the god if the Bible) and all of a sudden it's not right to speak about that as I have done. That belief should be respected.

    I can't see why.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Seratonin:
    You appear quite ignorant of the attitude of the majority of religionists, apparently maintaining the belief that they are as the JWs or as the JWs taught, while espousing your own beliefs in a manner and method akin to the JWs. Are you sure you haven't just exchanged one meme for another?

  • Junction-Guy
    Junction-Guy

    For God's sakes its a presbyterian church, not a Cult. Why do some of you atheists and agnostics hate all religions, when it was one particular religion that screwed you up? Why hate it all, just because some lying cult stole your childhood, or caused you to be shunned?

    I live in America, and in the South, and in my culture we go to church and worship the Lord, not pink jellyfish.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    What's the difference between telling a child

    a. Armageddon is close, so be a good JW and survive

    b. Be a good Christian so that you don't burn forever

    c. Worship a pink jellyfish

    Answer: Nothing. The beliefs are different, but the proof for all three is non existent. I'll even go as far as to say worshipping the pink jellyfish could be the most benign one there, but I can't see that argument swaying anyone to think it's okay to teach children that.

    Another question: Would any parent of young children here be okay with the idea of their child being taken to learn about Hinduism every week as fact instead of Christianity? If not, why should they be told Christianity is exclusively true because by pure chance they happened to born to Christian parents? Why the double standard?

  • Junction-Guy
    Junction-Guy

    A.---if Armageddon is really close then you will be inclined to put off education, career, dating, etc etc etc.

    B. If there is a hell, then you will be more inclined to not steal,fornicate, adultery, even if out of a misplaced sense of fear

    C. nothing wrong with this belief in itself (other than kooky), Unless A or C happen to be true,


    A. If after living all your life, following an organization that told you not to get a decent career, if this was a lie to begin with, then you have lost out on a whole lifetime of living.

    B. If you believed in hell and it scared the heck out of you, then at the end of your lifetime you have lost nothing, except maybe a broken marriage, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc etc etc. You still had the opportunity and the willingness to at least live a normal life on this planet--without alot of the negative experiences.

    C. If this is a lie, then you probably havent lost much in the way of life experiences, but the ever possibility of A or B still exists, and your eternity is at stake.


    This is the main difference in all 3

    A. A much controlled life, very little opportunity for happiness.

    B. still controlling, but much room is left open for the possibility of a normal life.

    C. Very Kooky, but very benign, unless of course you consider the possible ridicule of your peers.


    If I were a JW, there would be 100+ things I could never do, if it turned out to be a lie I would be pissed--but by the time I discovered it to be a lie, most of my life would have been gone.

    Since Im a Baptist, and I believe in hell, then after I die and discover there is no hell, then that would be a positive relief. In the meantime as a baptist, Im allowed to live a normal life, such as vote, run for office, celebrate holidays with my family, not have to worry about shunning people, go to college with the full support of my church, marry when and if I want to, I answer to no one but God and the US Law.

    If I were a Jelly fish worshipper and then discovered that there was a hell, or that there was an armageddon, then basically I have been extremely fooled for a foolish belief, I may still roast for eternity, or may die an eternal death, but at least I didnt have the controlling aspect of option A, and I was afforded the opportunity to make the most of my life here---But still, eternity is a long time.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    What's the difference between telling a child

    a. Armageddon is close, so be a good JW and survive

    b. Be a good Christian so that you don't burn forever

    c. Worship a pink jellyfish

    Answer: Nothing. The beliefs are different, but the proof for all three is non existent. I'll even go as far as to say worshipping the pink jellyfish could be the most benign one there, but I can't see that argument swaying anyone to think it's okay to teach children that.

    Strictly speaking, your 3 examples do not refer to the same type of belief. The first 2 do not refer to a belief in a god per se, but in matters pertaining to practice or doctrine.

    As for the 3rd one, is there ANYONE around who worships pink jellyfish sincerely? A real god, it occurs to me, doesn't let faith in him die out once he's revealed himself . Why would he? and that makes me think, has the pink jellyfish revealed himself to anyone? So no, the pink jellyfish is not in the same league as the Christian god.

    The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".

    So you can call it the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisble Pink Unicorn or whatever cutesy names you can think of to get everyones dander up, but what we are referring to the First Cause and Final End, commonly called God.

    Another question: Would any parent of young children here be okay with the idea of their child being taken to learn about Hinduism every week as fact instead of Christianity? If not, why should they be told Christianity is exclusively true because by pure chance they happened to born to Christian parents? Why the double standard?

    There is no double standard. We teach our children what we hold to be true. So would any sane parent. We also connect them to the chain of our past and future by delivering the traditions we have received. Your comment reminds me of why my grandfather packed up and left atheist communist Cuba, my father was going to come of age for the atheist brainwashing that boys get at 15. He gave everything up and left the country with his family and they went through much hardship.

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