Did a quick google on divorce cause, did not find any percent statistics, but most places listed financial as the top cause...and I can believe that!
Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?
by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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reniaa
hi again ak - jeff as usual your reply gets me thinking
This is a nice thought-provoking discussion. I am glad you started this thread.
I think though, that honestly, until one eliminates the Jw perspective from his viewpoint, he can not truly understand what the Bible says. Why do I say so?
The Bible contains multiplistic views of much of what Jw's claim is 'Biblical principle'.
- Throughout the OT the 'men of old' freely engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital sex. Then along comes Jesus and condemns sex outside a single partner.
- The OT presents God as a vindictive God that kills hundreds of millions in 'righteous warfare'. The bigger than life heroes of the Bible are all bloody. David was 'loved by Jehovah' for his killing of tens of thousands. Then Jesus comes along and tells us to 'turn the other cheek', to 'love our neighbors', and to treat the fallen in charitable ways.
- Paul tells us to 'let no man judge you in observance of a festival'. Yet Jw's teach us that we should avoid birthdays, holidays.
- The Israelites were extremely political, and the Jews of Jesus' day were looking for relief from the Romans through a 'messiah' of deliverance. The Christians that accepted him wanted the same. They were not, and did not, bow to the oppression that comes from political states without any effort to improve the political climate for themselves.
So which ones should be adopted? And why would a book of such great contrasting 'principle' be able to ever give us clear direction for life?
on the face of it you are right these would seem conflicting but are they, some you cite as examples are just the bible's author being honest about what certain people got upto, King David commited murder and yet he was loved by God but did that mean God sanctioned David's actions? if we read the whole issue on kings, God was reluntant to allow kings in the first place but he was persuaded to his ultimate regret,is that because he saw what making someone a ruler would do to them?
if i accept the bible i have to accept Gods right to inflict capital punishment were he chooses and believe he had good reason too, condemnation after the fact is easy to do, as we saw with iraq, one week i was having discussions telling me how good our leaders were for going to war next the tide of opinion quickly turned and the once approving people bacame hotly against it.
Jesus didn't touch on politics much "the give ceasar's things back to ceasar" being one of the few times, does that one principle allow for us to jump in and become deeply political, I am heartically sick of news about he American election and i'm english! so how much worse it is if you live in america i can only ask? how much longer is it before we get a new president and all this political roadshow ends?
So which ones should be adopted? And why would a book of such great contrasting 'principle' be able to ever give us clear direction for life?
I can only answer this from a personal standpoint, I am happy in seeing contrasts are about the maturing of a race but jesus himself used OT scripture and law on which to base his principles so T am of the opinion they are not as conflicting as you believe. if anything jesus is stricter in my upinion because he puts greater emphasis on self regulation.
None of that is really a carry over from Jw's. I am just that way. Perhaps it is genetic. Why do I not go out and take advantage of my freedom? Because my moral character originates inside myself. It is not from outside, from some written dictum. Such dictums seem to shift in the wind, depending on who interprets them anyway. My values are not derived from a book. especially such a contradictory one.
Jw's believe that I am a blood-drinking, idol worshipping, fornicating, Bible burning, lunatic. I am not. Yet they wish to label me as such because it legitimizes their hatred for me for daring to leave their religion.
I have known hundreds of fornicating Jw's over my lifetime. Many of them worship their mates, their cars, their houses, or themselves. Many of them spend less time reading the Bible than my Catholic neighbors do. They have quiet Thanksgiving Dinners or make sure that presents for the kids are given around certain holidays, conveniently. They drink more than my Muslim neighbors. They watch entertainment that my Amish neighbors would cringe over seeing. The divorce rate in the local congregation seems to be quite high. Must be some fornication going on in that nice Bible believing bunch over there. Since I left the organization, I know of 4 couples in the local that were divorced and remarried. I did not. After 34 years of marriage, we stick together better than about 90% of Jw's that I know.
The Jw's are just human. They don't use Bible principles anym. ore than I do. They just claim they do
didn't jesus make the point somewere that we can be naturally morale I forget the scripture?
The principle of I live a good life, I am good to others show love etc don't kill cheat etc isn't that enough? is one that is used a lot and I think also comes up in the bible, rich man and camel
The Rich Young Man
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' [d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' [e] "
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother [f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
what is the point of jesus saying all this if just being a goodchristian is enough? lol i'm asking more questions than you ak-jeff
The only thing i will take you up on is your final character assasination of Jw's you've known, i'll agree you'll get all types, good and bad in any organisation but you make it sound like the org makes them worse in some way which i think is misleading,
but getting tired now so forgive me if my replies are beginning to lack coherency :)
reniaa
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aligot ripounsous
Reniaa,
I'm not sure this answers your question but I think that an exJW's attitude toward the former rules he chooses to break will really depend on how he understands the Bible teaching, how he has personally made it his own, and what "perks" we are talking about. Among the perks you cited, it seems to me that there are some which clearly involve Bible principles, such as out of marriage sex and to some extent, gambling (let the one who doesn't work not eat). The ExJW who indulges in them will certainly think that in doing so he breaks free from too limiting WT regulations but, if he is honest, he will also acknowledge that he is acting contrary to Bible rules.
Now, IMO, Xmas, birthdays and politics are to be considered differently. They are viewed as non biblical by JWs out of a sheer will to singularize that religion, so that JWs can easily be identified by "worldly" onlookers and they give JWs a sense of exclusiveness, but one hardly finds any biblical basis to the JW stand. Objectively, the ExJW who gets involved in these practices won't break any Bible rules, but he may feel that he does so because of all that he has been taught and repeated again and again over the years by the WTS and that is now stuck to his mind. So, in the end, in celebrating Xmas, may be out of a desire of self assertion vis-à-vis the WTS, he may still feel bad conscience as regards "true" christian principles when in fact there is no ground for guilt if those practices are carried out with genuineness .
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reniaa
Wasn't ignoring you just got into a long reply to someone else lol how could i ignore a sweet chuckling puppy like you? :x
Reniaa..As usual..You ignore a direct request,to answer my post to you..Why?..Don`t you like what the Bible has to say about the Celebration of the Birth of Jesus..It does`nt go along with what the Watchtower has to say,does it?..The Watchtower contradicts what the Bible says,it`s there for you to read..The WBT$ is in direct opposition to what the Bible says......You chose to support an Organization that opposes the bible.. ..LOL!!..........You started a thread about people who turn they`re backs on what the bible has to say..Yet you do the same.. ................I would still like an answer to my post,to you................. ...OUTLAW
firstly i highlighted a statement that I was surprised you said, the bible doesn't mention celebrating jesus's birth at all and is very definate in not providing a date for his birth. the scripture someone brought up was to do with festivals but none that inc this one, they were just trying to use this scripture as a principle to allow all celebrations as we choose to do them which by espansion allows christmas.
For the record I do not look up JW website for answers and as you see when quoting scriptures ,if i can i try to quote a whole passage so as not to lose the context involved.
but i did look up wiki :) and so for your reference as you can see from this quote Jw's are not unique in their condemnation of it christmas is not popular by christian purests and I myself think it is more about worship these days in practise than a simple holiday, the same article says 96% of americans currently observe christmas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
Reformation into the 19th century
During the Reformation, some Protestants [who?] condemned Christmas celebration as "trappings of popery" and the "rags of the Beast." [26] The Roman Catholic Church responded by promoting the festival in a more religiously oriented form. Following the Parliamentarian victory over King Charles I during the English Civil War, England's Puritan rulers banned Christmas, in 1647. [26] Pro-Christmas rioting broke out in several cities, and for weeks Canterbury was controlled by the rioters, who decorated doorways with holly and shouted royalist slogans. [26] The Restoration of Charles II in 1660 ended the ban, but many clergymen still disapproved of Christmas celebration.
In Colonial America, the Puritans of New England disapproved of Christmas. Celebration was outlawed in Boston from 1659 to 1681. At the same time, Christian residents of Virginia and New York observed the holiday freely.Pennsylvania German Settlers, pre-eminently the Moravian settlers of Bethlehem, Nazareth and Lititz in Pennsylvania and the Wachovia Settlements in North Carolina, were enthusiastic celebrators of Christmas. The Moravians in Bethlehem had the first Christmas trees in America as well asthe first Nativity Scenes. Christmas fell out of favor in the United States after the American Revolution, when it was considered an English custom. [27] George Washington attacked Hessian mercenaries on Christmas during the Battle of Trenton in 1777. (Christmas being much more popular in Germany than in America at this time.) By the 1820s, sectarian tension had eased and British writers, including William Winstanly began to worry that Christmas was dying out. These writers imagined Tudor Christmas as a time of heartfelt celebration, and efforts were made to revive the holiday. Charles Dickens's book A Christmas Carol, published in 1843, played a major role in reinventing Christmas as a holiday emphasizing family, goodwill, and compassion as opposed to communal celebration and hedonistic excess. [
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Junction-Guy
Reniaa, I left the JW's so I could have a normal life, not because I wanted to rebel against God or the Bible.
Being a JW hindered me from dating and from marriage. In order for me to find a JW mate I would have to have gotten baptized into the organization. Following baptism I would have been required to shun my Mom and distance myself from my "worldly, but christian family" I weighed the costs and decided it was much too high for me. My brother was just the opposite. He willingly got baptized and subsequently shunned Mom and distanced himself from the rest of the family. Because my brother was baptized, he was considered good JW marriage material, and therefore had numerous opportunities open up to him.
I finally decided the heck with it all, and quit going to the meetings, within 3 months I met Amanda, we started dating and things fell into place, and the rest is history.
My stepgrandma told me point blank about 6 years ago--"That JW religion is a bunch of sh-t, it nearly destroyed you boys" and in my case that is so true. Thankfully for me I was able to salvage my faith in Jesus after leaving the JW's. On Feb 14,1999 I surrendered my all to Jesus at my church up in Kentucky. What brought me to the altar was something the preacher said about being ashamed of Jesus. You see 2 months prior I was riding high in life, I was about to embark on a new career. I was a practical shoe-in for the job. When I went to the interview, I was asked who was the most important influence in my life. I wanted to say "Jesus" but I didn't. I was pre conditioned since birth not to give any special devotion to Jesus and was therefore embarassed to say Jesus. I never did get that job, and for weeks my conscience bothered me.
The JW religion binds people up in non-biblical rules and regulations and when they finally leave it is like a coil/spring that has unwound. Yes alot of XJW's go on to commit many biblical sins and many even end up atheist, but that is the legacy that the JW's leave behind. If someone can leave the JW's with their beliefs in God intact and still live biblically sound lives--well they are probably in the minority.
This religion is destructive, it is destructive to families, it is destructive to the developing minds of children.
If celebrating Christmas,birthdays, thanksgiving is displeasing to God, then surely being a JW is even worse.
I celebrate just about all holidays now, and I also vote. I don't fornicate, I don't drink, I don't smoke pot. I don't even buy lottery tickets anymore.
It is my goal again to remarry, have a happy family life, have kids, all of this without the Watchtower's influence, or shall I say desipte the Watchtower's influence. -
Reefton Jack
Is it the JWs, or is it the god of the bible I no longer believe in?
- like, are these two the only possible alternatives?
From my experience with the lot of them (i.e. including JWs - but not just limited to them), I have got absolutely no use for religion in any of its forms.
Jack. -
reniaa
hi junction guy :) thank you for your reply.
Reniaa, I left the JW's so I could have a normal life, not because I wanted to rebel against God or the Bible.
From some of the replies I've read many would agree with you, in some respects I do too because Jw's do as a more contraversial christian religion take you out of the norm and for that reason alone make being one difficult.
I have to say my childhood JW experiences are different especially in relation to jesus, I have never felt ashamed of jesus, I just don't think he is God, to be honest it's only as I've come into contact with other christian faiths that I have come across this either/or situation in regards to jehovah and jesus. You can have one or the other but you can't have both apparently. As a child I felt no conflict between jehovah being my God and jesus as my teacher and more approachable as God's son.
I wanted to say "Jesus" but I didn't. I was pre conditioned since birth not to give any special devotion to Jesus and was therefore embarassed to say Jesus. I never did get that job, and for weeks my conscience bothered me.
one thing this whole discussion has brought up for me is a deeper research into some of the history of practises frowned on by Jw's, take gambling it is also condemned by christians other than Jw's under the principle of love of money. just looking up voting again it's another principle one but looks like that one is unique to witnesses so far.
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AK - Jeff
The only thing i will take you up on is your final character assasination of Jw's you've known, i'll agree you'll get all types, good and bad in any organisation but you make it sound like the org makes them worse in some way which i think is misleading,
R - just speaking from my personal experience of course. I know many fine Christians who are no more and no less moral than Jw's. I also know many who do not believe in God at all who live kind and decent lives.
I don't believe that the Jw's make them particularly worse than any other religions - but not particularly better either. But what is absolutely true is this - Jw's believe that they, and only they, apply the Bible in it's most beneficial way. They do not as far as I can see.
Once again I must ask - What is Biblical morality? Is it the morals of Lot, who offered his virgin daughters to the seething crowds of Sodom, then shortly thereafter got drunk and was tricked into incest with those same virgins so that they may carry on his good name? You see what I mean. Surely Jesus would have condemned them all for such actions. Yet, by all Christians these people are held up in high esteem, as examples to follow?
Why is Biblical morality better than morality of Buddha or Ghandi or The Quaran?
Many who leave Jw's are 'immoral' from a Jw perspective. But within many churches, they would be embraced as sinners who need repentance and the balm of love that the church can provide in helping them 'back to God'. Yet, Jw's would make them sit in the back of the hall and be ignored, shun them on the street, and refuse to speak with them in public. I must ask - who is showing the spirit of Biblical love espoused by both Jesus and his apostles?
And why would we widely assume that leaving the Jw's would lead to life that violates the Bible's basic morality [the NT variety at least]?
I am sure this line of thought was going somewhere - but I am being distracted here and must leave for a while.
Jeff
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LovesDubs
The Witnesses themselves said that if a person were to "follow just the Bible" they would be lead right back into darkness...but to read the WATCHTOWER exclusively would keep them in the light!
So...even if a JW stops reading his bible altogether and starts following the Watchtower literature doctrine, he is still not following bible principles according to you because he no longer reads his bible
So the JWs say...WE follow the BIBLE! But by the way...you shouldnt follow what the bible says because it will lead you to evil?
Thats a lose lose now aint it. Such a quandry.
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Homerovah the Almighty
Lets put things into pure perspective though the WTS. was established to to empower men that would have other wise not have any at all.
The bible afforded them power and control, unfortunately the source in which they derived the power was woefully out dated and unjust with human sociality.
But hey aren't all ancient religions purposefully redundant regarding human sociality.