Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  lovelylil

  reniaa,

  with all the words you posted in your comment to me, you still did not answer any of the questions. You keep changing the subject. You said the bible forbids observing xmas, and when I ask where does it say that? You then ask where it says we should observe it. Yet, I never said the Bible says we should observe it. In fact, I've said the Bible doesn't mention xmas at all. Which is true. But just because the Bible does not mention observance of a particular day, it does not mean the Bible forbids the observance of it. Got that, or is it too hard for you to comprehend?

  Really though, You are a bit dramatic about xmas. I don't remember me asking about your personal experiences in observing the holidays at all and you just threw that in I guess as a smoke screeen. But lets get back on track. Just because you had some bad experiences does not mean xmas is evil.

  Remember YOU are the one who said that observing xmas was contrary to the Bible and you also claimed xmas was EVIL. Yet, you provide no evidence to support it at all EXCEPT your own opinions.

  This is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do. State opinion as fact, with no support whatsoever. You made outlandish statements about suicides going up, that evil things happen during xmas, that celebrating xmas is the same as celebrating Saturnalia. Yet, you provide no proof at all. I bet you never looked up the observance of Saturnalia at all and have no idea what happened on that day.

  Like many brought out, there are several groups that are seperatitist like and do not observe holidays. They, like Reniaa, cite many of the same excuses why they do not. All of which are not backed up by any real fact. These groups are legalistic ones and want to push their consciences on others.

  The truth is Reniaa, noone here cares whether you observe xmas or not, that is your personal choice. Most people would not judge you on it at all. I know in the 12 years I was a Witness, no one in my family was CONDEMED for not observing it. Again, this is the word you used, (rather dramatic don't you think?) not me.

  But, you cannot push your opinions on others either and you and the JW's are the ones condeming others by saying our view is not scriptural. And yet, not one iota of scripture to support that opinion.

  You do at least seem to concede that the Bible does not mention Christmas in any way. Since this is true, how can you still believe that the Bible condems something it does not even address? You are very perplexing indeed. .

  Peace, Lilly
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  Junction-Guy

  Perhaps things are different in the UK, but celebrating Christmas in America stunbles no one, it is just the opposite. By JW's making a big fuss over not celebrating Christmas, they are stumbling alot of people who would maybe consider them.
  
  Now there is alot of commercialism in Christmas nowadays, but that is just a general reflection of modern day society at large and shouldn't single out Christmas only.
  
  My church downplays the secularism of Christmas and Easter, and always exalts Jesus above any other aspect, and to me that is what Christianity and Christmas are about.
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  reniaa

  Sorry mr majestic lol I completely misread your questions it was 2am and i just missed the qualifications at the end

  If the bible is not true, there is absolutely nothing wrong with indulging in Christmas, being that it would be just an ancient religious custom that has no real meaning at all these days….

  If the bible isn’t true then there would be nothing wrong with someone playing a slot machine, so long as he didn’t overindulge…..

  And if the bible isn’t true, then it would be a wise choice to vote, to try to improve the welfare of the community that you live in….

  Actually reading this I totally agree with you, Some things are only wrong within religious boundaries, worshiping other things has no meaning to someone who doesn't believe in God or the bible,

  Things like sex, gambling, smoking are defined by the consequences of addicton and overindulgence as you say, I would say purely from looking around me people are poor self-regulators though, alcohol and cigarettes are still massive killers so there is an argument to say man needs protecting from himself well that is why we have laws from drink driving to burglary.

  If I didn't believe in God of the bible and salvation through jesus, I would probably vote too your saying it maybe our only chance to improve welfare being a big motivator, a question for you though if the governement you vote causes deaths and great wrongdoing do you feel yourself as partly responsible?

  lol i'm won't agree to the not openminded accusation! I feel it's more of a case of how does a bird understand a fish? a bird can say "Come up here out of that murky water and see the vast glories of the heavens and the fish will say "No come down here and I will show you the deep mysterious depths" each unable to grasp the beauty in what the other sees so going away to live their own lifes :).

  reniaa
• 

  reniaa

  hi Junction guy and Lil

  The bible does allow for principles to be applied when there is no mention of something, for me personally and if you look at my posts as I've said before were I think Jw's are wrong i'll say it but in this case I think they are right.

  For both of you some questions.... if we found an early gospel that actually gave a date for jesus's birth would you suddenly drop christmas and adopt this new date? and if you did would you keep the pagan origin rituals that come with christmas like the lights, tree etc?

  Do you think jesus would approve of worshiping him at Christmas as we do? to use your own words junctionguy

  My church downplays the secularism of Christmas and Easter, and always exalts Jesus above any other aspect, and to me that is what Christianity and Christmas are about.

  and I agree with you there for many Christians that is what they do at christmas, although it s a bit of a chameleon in itself and can be 'all things to all men' hense why non-christians and other faiths have happily embraced it just cutting according to there own preferences, it is certainly flexible.
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  isaacaustin

  For both of you some questions.... if we found an early gospel that actually gave a date for jesus's birth would you suddenly drop christmas and adopt this new date? and if you did would you keep the pagan origin rituals that come with christmas like the lights, tree etc?

  Please elaborate on "the pagan origin rituals that come with christmas like the lights, tree etc" This is an assertion that is speculatory at best.
• 

  DoomVoyager

  Reniaa, do you wear a wedding ring? If you are unmarried, would you wear a wedding ring? Are you aware that the giving of a ring during marriage ceremonies was first practiced by Germanic pagans... and that the ring symbolized Ouroboros, a very "satanic"-looking serpent god who continually ate his own tail, giving him the shape of a ring? Furthemore, rings were also attached to swords as good luck charms in battle.

  Please don't jump around like a skittish little witness. Just answer yes or now, do you wear a wedding ring, and were you aware of the above facts?
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  jgnat

  Hi, I am a regular Christian, respect the bible, and would never join the JW's. I think the Witnesses have cherry-picked scriptures and given their own spin of interpretation to set themselves apart as somehow "superior". Yet they are not. The big laws in the bible regarding worship, charity, reverence for life, brotherly love, honesty, and forgiveness. These bible principles are twisted by the JW's to a shadow of their original meaning. Yet JW's obsess over their interpretation of minor matters such as gift giving, hem lengths, and holidays.

  Show me where the Witnesses showcase the bible principles listed above. Then I'll be happy to call them bible believers.

  Show me where the bible prohibits sex, christmas, gambling, or politics. You won't find it. In my opinion these are extra-biblical additions for the reasons I suggest above.
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  reniaa

  Hi Loubelle and Anti-christ thank you for your replies it is interesting to see were people stand on this now that they have left JW's,

  I hope you don't think I ment people leaving leaving the JW's will go out and automatically commit sin, I was just questioning why they left, if it was purely the JW's or that they had also lost faith in the bible too, and that if the only thing that classes something as a sin, is a document you no longer consider inspired there is certainly no reason to feel the need to abide by it anymore, but you Anti-Christ that a person can still not commit sin simply because it's wrong without god having to tell us so :)

  I find that I am a better person since I "lost my faith" and I am a lot happier. I do not fear life as much any more. I just celebrated my 11 wedding anniversary this weekend and I don't have the urge to sleep around just because I don't believe in the bible. I don't do drugs or anything else that is self destructive. I hope that one day superstitions like religion will just die out because I believe humanity needs to let go of this to evolve.

  Another thing I found that makes things less cut and dried, within those that leave and still believe in the bible they have a new set of principles drawn from their new Chrsitan faith and this itself can be quite a big canvas over what we consider right and wrong depending on what their new faith is.

  It's funny but i've really found this thread interesting and informative thank you Peeps
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  Junction-Guy

  Renaia, I am not sure about the whole world, but if some historic document and especially a gospel was discovered, and if the date of Jesus birth was mentioned, then here in America we would probably change the date of Christmas. As for the trees and lights, well they are just decorations, and somewhere I have even seen a webpage explaining the meanings of the traditions with a christian view.
  
  Here is another point too----There are very few actual dates mentioned in the bible, mostly the dates come from other sources. If I am wrong correct me, but is there anywhere in the bible where a specific date is mentioned such as 607 BC, 586 BC, 70 CE? I don't recall any dates being mentioned.
• 

  lovelylil

  reniaa,

  You have yet to answer one of my Q's although I have continually asked you the same ones, and you now are asking me Q's? I don't think so.

  Your theory of what 'if" a portion of the bible being found with Jesus' birth on it does not matter at all. We are free to observe any days we want to and the Bible does not condem the doing so. It doesn't matter if the Lord was born on Dec. 25, Halloween day or New Years day! The Apostle Paul tells us that whatever days are significant to US we can observe and no one should judge us for it. What can you NOT grasp about this? Do you like staying a slave to men who dictate to you what days you can and cannot observe??

  Please stop rambling on and try to stay on point. This is the last time I will ask these simple Q's;

  You said that we should not celebrate xmas because the bible forbids it, where exactly is that in the Bible? Scripture text please.........

  You said xmas is evil because the suicide rate goes up and that is directly because of xmas.. Please cite the source for this information...What surveys were done that proves this?........................

  As a matter of fact, even IF suicides do go up around xmas time, how does that PROVE xmas itself is evil?................

  You said that when we observe xmas, we are really observing the ancient festival of Saturnalia, prove it! What does our modern day xmas have to do with that ancient festival that almost no one has heard of?......................................

  About Adultery....You claim the number 1 reason for it is sexual immorality..........what is your source for this information?...............

  When you can answer these Q's with stated fact and not your own rambling on opinions, then I will answer yours. Peace, Lilly