Hi Peeps thankyou for the time you taken to reply to me i'll try and address as many as I can...
ak-jeff
Once again I must ask - What is Biblical morality? Is it the morals of Lot, who offered his virgin daughters to the seething crowds of Sodom, then shortly thereafter got drunk and was tricked into incest with those same virgins so that they may carry on his good name? You see what I mean. Surely Jesus would have condemned them all for such actions. Yet, by all Christians these people are held up in high esteem, as examples to follow?
This question you ask made me remember me asking similar ones starting from when i was young, I was used to 'happily ever after fairy tales' then i'd read my bible book of stories and you'd often get someone doing something really good then the next story they'd be bad again lol I was very disapointed in David and Solomon :) once onto bible reading it got even more indepth, There are very few that stand upto close scrutiny but isn't the principle of forgiveness of sins the whole point of jesus that only he was perfect? isn't all christianity about the struggle trying to do good knowing we are imperfect, its a reacurring christian theme in any christian faith lol many scriptures to choose one but i will pick one of my favourites on forgiveness of sins and jesus but i'm sure there are better examples as usual i'll give you a big lump so you can read in context.
Luke 17
Sin, Faith, Duty
1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2 It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3 So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." 5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
7 "Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8 Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "
i think this example also covers your next point on shunning too
Many who leave Jw's are 'immoral' from a Jw perspective. But within many churches, they would be embraced as sinners who need repentance and the balm of love that the church can provide in helping them 'back to God'. Yet, Jw's would make them sit in the back of the hall and be ignored, shun them on the street, and refuse to speak with them in public. I must ask - who is showing the spirit of Biblical love espoused by both Jesus and his apostles?
if you look at my previous posts I do struggle with the JW expression of shunning, here jesus shows there is a principle of rebuking then repentence and forgiveness of sins, are the witnesses too harsh? personally I would say yes certainly within families but by the same token I've seen and been a victim of the opposite so for me that one is unpalatable too, when someone can say to themselves and to me "I have sinned but it's ok God will forgive me upto 70 times 7 because I am repentant because I can't help sinning" and see themself as righteous despite a grave sin commited the excuse being sinning can't be helped but forgiveness is assured.
And why would we widely assume that leaving the Jw's would lead to life that violates the Bible's basic morality
people can only answer this from a personal viewpoint which from the variety of responses the threads had so far it's very up in the air :)
hi LoveDubs
So the JWs say...WE follow the BIBLE! But by the way...you shouldnt follow what the bible says because it will lead you to evil?
good question :) the eternal quandary, the principle that we need others to explain the bible yet all are imperfect, The thought that leaning on your own understanding can lead to twisting of scripture is an issue recognised in the bible itself. Well I know if I had a teacher from every christian faith to explain how they express the bible in front of me it would be a case of choosing one I felt had it right but it's still me making the final decision. but I can understand the principle that just reading the bible alone may not be enough but the bible can be the rule against which a faith is measured. lol you can get a headache thinking on this to long ^^
hi homerovah
Lets put things into pure perspective though the WTS. was established to to empower men that would have other wise not have any at all.
was the gaining of power the main motivating reason for the establishment of WTs? I think i would question that assumption, from what i've read they were motivated more by the genuine feeling that faiths had in practise and teaching strayed from the scriptures. but then that is also true so many of the younger christian faiths now around, the catholics have a lot to answer for.
Doesn't religion only becomes redundant if we see God as redundant as well whichever God we follow?
hi Mary
Does the fact that the bible does not mention something mean that it's wrong to celebrate it?
but I would say by the same token the fact of it's not being mentioned doesn't make it right celebrate it either! isn't that why we are given bible principles to judge by so they can be applied to given situations that will not be mentioned, If I apply biblical principles to christmas it fails on a number of counts for me personally, with the lies involved (santa is an accepted mythical figure and do you not see in having him side by side with jesus it's begging for people to also see jesus as less than real by association?), also it's place in society, as i've said before it smacks more of worship than of just a fluffy holiday for fun which supposedly can be done or not at your own decretion, simply by people's reaction and treatment of me if I choose not to do it, if the pagan part is meaningless then why are we so driven to make sure all the 'traditions' of christmas are observed each one of these are pagan and have definite meanings from the tree to holly etc
It's misleading to compare a wedding ring to the whole circus that is christmas, like comparing a skyscraper to a hut. but it is a personal choice though and for myself the final say always goes to jesus and I try to visualise how he would view our love of christmas for me the answer is in the negative but others may be different and think jesus would like that sort of recognition.
hi Quandry
thanks for your reply, You raise the interesting point that Jw's is constantly rewritting were it draws the lines on issues, you use recent examples but it would be safe to say this is a a practise common with the witnesses from their start onwards, Rather than try and justify individual cases the question is...Is this constant reavaluation of stance a black mark against the Jw's?
Congratulations on the college on this one you have my agreement I think Jw stance on education is outdated and wrong, basically from the bible principle that jesus was allowed to get to 30 and learn a trade before he became the messiah, there are dangers with college so it's still a personal choice issue, but in this case the overprotectiveness of WTs has been to the detriment in my opinion.
hi again dacheech
To be honest it never bothered me that elders are as prone to feet of clay as everyone else is but you do sound unhappy, the one thing this thread has shown is many have left out of genuine disolutionment with Wts and still hold by bible principles. Your point on katrina makes me wonder if any person here on this forum could tell us if the Jw's do give aid as they say they do from personal experience in situations such as katrina?
hi mr majestic I got to you :) again
What also would be wrong with someone playing the slot machines if the bible isn’t true…..??
And what would be wrong with someone voting if the bible isn’t true…??? Would it not be in his best interests if there was no truth in the bible….???
Looking forward to your reply, especially on the Christmas scenario.......
The principle on gambling seems to be an established christian one not unique to just witnesses drawn from love of money, putting faith in chance.
Voting is a more difficult one from my research it is unique to witnesses, but I personally feel the principles involved are sound, as with in not putting faith in the salvation coming from men and being responsible for the actions of a government if you vote them in and they choose to goto war etc
lol I refer to my christmas point above for your consideration :)
thx again everyone.
Reniaa
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...OUTLAW