jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  reniaa

  hi lovelylil

  Enoch is appocrypha meaning it hasn't got Gods seal of approval, it is written apparently by enoch but since he was pre-flood this is impossible so it came from someone afterwards, there is absolutly no doubt it was considered not inspired by God but a work of man by all those from that time, but also it isn't the only outside book that appostles quote from, but quoting specific bits does not make the whole acceptable just the bit quoted which might be the only grain of truth in a highly romanticised piece of work....

  The Book of Enoch describes the fall of the Watchers, the angels who fathered the Nephilim (cf. the b e ne Elohim, Genesis 6:1-2 ). The fallen angels went to Enoch to intercede on their behalf with God after he declared to them their doom. The remainder of the book describes Enoch's visit to Heaven in the form of a vision, and his revelations.

  The book contains descriptions of the movement of heavenly bodies (in connection with Enoch's trip to Heaven), and some parts of the book have been speculated about [citation needed] as containing instructions for the construction of a solar declinometer (the Uriel's machine theory).

  Some of the fallen angels that are given in 1 Enoch have other names such as Rameel ('morning of God'), who becomes Azazel and is also called Gadriel ('wall of God') in Chapter 69. Another example is that Araqiel ('Earth of God') becomes Aretstikapha ('world of distortion') in Chapter 69.

  "Azaz" as in Azazel means strength, so the name Azazel can refer to strength of God. But the sense in which it is used most-probably means impudent (showing strength towards) which comes out as arrogant to God. This is also a key point to his being Satan in modern thought.

  The suffix of the names 'el' means 'God' (List of names referring to El) which is used in the names of high ranking angels. The Archangels all include this such as Uriel (Flame of God) or Michael "who is like God?".

  Another is given as Gadrel, who is said to have tempted Eve.
• 

  lovelylil

  unbaptized,

  You are correct about Enoch. He was a prophet of God given special insight from Jehovah about the last days. My point was this, Enoch in his book does not identify Jesus with being Michael, although he had visions of heaven, and was taken to heaven and conversed with the Angels of God, including Michael the Archangel whom he calls the Angel in charge of protecting Isreal.

  Enoch referred to the prehuman Christ in his book, but never identified him with being an Angel. Enoch refers to the prehuman Christ, whom he saw in heaven as either the "Elect and Concealed one", Enoch 48:3, or, "The mighty and Holy One" Enoch 1:3-4.

  Again, Christ is a seperate entity than Michael according to Enoch. Lilly
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  reniaa

  lol and also keeps jesus a separate entity from God too! in Enoch, thats why catholics are not big fans of enoch! it certainly doesn't promote the trinitarian doctrine at all. Seems to be more involved with Angels sex lifes.
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  lovelylil

  Reniaa, Aprocrypha does not mean it does not have Gods approval. Here is the meaning of this word;

  A·poc·ry·pha (-pkr-f) n.(used with a sing. or pl. verb) 1. The biblical books included in the Vulgate and accepted in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox canon but considered noncanonical by Protestants because they are not part of the Hebrew Scriptures. See Table at Bible. 2. Various early Christian writings proposed as additions to the New Testament but rejected by the major canons. 3. apocrypha Writings or statements of questionable authorship or authenticity

  God himself did not handpick the books we have in our bible canon. The council of Nicea did this. (look this up, I am sure you don't know what this was). They included the Apocrypha books that the Protestants do not accept. Are you a Protestant?

  However, Enoch as well as hundreds of other writing were used and read by the early Jews and Enoch happens to be mentioned by the Bible writer Jude, in our biblical canon.

  Just becuase the Protestants do not accept this book, does not mean God has rejected them. You really should learn more about the history of how our bible was put together, and what books were left out and why. Then you may decide like I did that you want to read these books yourself.

  After all, where does God state we cannot read them? Peace, Lilly
• 

  lovelylil

  Reniaa,

  How many times do people have to tell you that we accept that Christ is a seperate Person from the Father? Don't you know how to read?

  Where did I ever say Jesus is the father Jehovah? Please go back and read all the posts about how Christ is the same in Nature, not position. And he is a seperate person from the father.

  We are saying Jesus of the New Testament is the God of the Old Testament "manifest in the flesh", do you understand the meaning of the word "incarnation?"

  Do you understand that a GOD cannot beget a Son who is anything less than a GOD? How can a God beget a son who is only a perfect man?

  You are just choosing to believe the WT's interpretation of the trinity and who Christ is and they are wrong, leading you and millions of others into error and spiritual darkness. I feel sorry for you.

  Lilly
• 

  jgnat

  :I have through reading like slappy come to a greater understanding of the trinity, unlike slappy it has made me even more sceptical of it, The constant reminders that they are 3 separate beings means that God is lying in OT when he says he is one God.

  I see a pattern here. You engage people with your beliefs, ignore the flaws in your own reasoning, and use their protests to bolster your own belief. You come out of these discussions even more hardened to your own way of thinking, don't you? I suspect you left the evolutionists in the same state, refusing to hear and declaring yourself the winner in your own mind.

  :To me this is jesus showing great humility making sure that proper praise goes to God and and then he looks at the man with love so I would be surprised if jesus could feel this way if he had the motivations you apply jgnat. how could the wealthy man inspire love in jesus if he was being self-serving?

  So we both apply motive to support our own beliefs. Neither of us were there so our speculations are nullified.

  :(1 Corinthians)

  So in following jesus they are following Jehovah but again it doesn't imply Jesus is God just that jesus is Gods Worker bringing us to God, his mediator

  And here the same author clearly shows that Jesus is to be worshipped and followed as fully God.

  Hebrews 1:: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

  Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

  Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

  Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

  Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

  Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

  Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

  Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

  Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

  Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (See also Psalm 102:25-27)

  Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

  Hbr 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

  Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

  Hbr 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

  :You say a currupt God demands worship?

  I was quite careful of my words, so I checked. I said a corrupt leader demands worship. There's only one God, right? Satan could never usurp God. Not even in the same category.

  :So are you saying here jesus is sayng "no satan I'm not gonna worship you! You should worship me?"

  I am saying a good leader never says it. Jesus didn't. People worshipped him and followed him because is love and truth personified.

  I mentioned in the tail of my posts that regardless of how Jesus spoke about himself, by his actions he proved himself God. There are other matters other than worship that remain to be explored.

  Who sits on the throne? Only God.

  Who controls the winds and the waves? God alone.

  Are you ready to look at them?
• 

  JosephMalik

  How many times do people have to tell you that we accept that Christ is a seperate Person from the Father? Don't you know how to read?

  Lovelylil,

  I can, and I picked this up right off. It is not exactly Trinitarian and I brought this out when I said not-trinitarian when describing your views. For more detail we should go back to what you said: A separate person is also a separate Being or entity and cannot be the same God ascribed to it. And you confirm this for you said:

  Lovelylil said: Where did I ever say Jesus is the father Jehovah? Please go back and read all the posts about how Christ is the same in Nature, not position. And he is a seperate person from the father.

  Separate person, separate Being not the Supreme Being we are discussing by this very reasoning. But now your twist on things:.

  Lovelylil said: We are saying Jesus of the New Testament is the God of the Old Testament "manifest in the flesh", do you understand the meaning of the word "incarnation?"

  Who is we? Now you are back to the more traditional Trinitarian view of that doctrine. It is a lie of course and not supported by any texts. Where is scripture is "incarnation" restricted to the Father or the GOD of the OT? After all it was the Father in the Old Testament you are now making into Jesus. How? By simply saying it, no proof texts, improper use of words like God, and contradictory thinking. It is your task to prove such statements and you cannot. You can only repeat them over and over again until we are all tired of it or give up. That and by force and intimidation is how Trinitarian theology works and you used that as well.

  Lovelylil said: Do you understand that a GOD cannot beget a Son who is anything less than a GOD? How can a God beget a son who is only a perfect man?

  Sure I can, but He did not do it. I can also understand how a GOD in capitals can create another human (not from GOD but ) from the WORD to act as God in small letters to us. This does not make two GOD’s the way you just did. It simply makes this WORD now the only begotten human Son of GOD as His Apostle, Mediator and Savior and of course God in small letters to us.

  Joseph
• 

  isaacaustin

  hi sacolton I'm glad of this question because it made me research the whole voice thing could it just be a random archangels voice consider the following.....

  1. Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. Thessalonians 4:16 Greens Literal Translation

  Now lets see what Christ said when He was on Earth.

  1. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

  The only voice mentioned in thess here is an archangels voice for the dead to hear but that voice to call them is the son of Gods? how can this be? unless son of God and the archangel are one and the same.

  its an interesting quandary!

  Reniaa

  Reniaa,

  1st Thess 4: 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

  is restated in Revelation ch 19...pay attention to verse 17:

  11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
  
  17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

  Verse 17 clearly identifies this angel...being distinct from our Lord.
• 

  lovelylil

  Joseph,

  Thanks for your comments but my questions were specifically asked to Reniaa. I know that you understand the Q's but you have a different view then "we" meaning me, St.Ann, Isaacaustin, slappy and jgnat. And yes, our views are slightly different from one another in some ways, but one thing we do agree on collectively is the Divinity of Christ.

  I appreciate your comments for at least you can explain your views in a coherent way. Even though we disagree, I respect you for giving honest answers.

  Reniaa, on the other hand, refuses to accept what anyone is saying and approach the discussion from that standpoint. She just keeps making assumptions about our beliefs based on the WT's interpretation of them. And she clearly has not even a basic knowlege of our Bible canon and how it is arranged and books chosen. So if she does not understand such a basic thing, how can she debate the divinity of Christ or the trinity? she does not undertand what the proper teaching regarding the trinity is either.

  While I appreciate your answers Joseph, I just do not agree that Christ is not the God of the OT "manifest in the flesh" as the scriptures say he is and that he is either "just a perfect man" or "an archangel". And at this point, I never will. The reasons I have already given and I feel is amply supported by scripture proving the divinity of Christ. Since you will not accept what the scriptures teach or choose to interpret them differently to fit into your own belief system, we will just have to continue to disagree on this subject.

  Peace, Lilly

  p.s. I am off to work, be back to wiegh in again on this topic later.
• 

  sacolton

  Who was the Jehovah that spoke with Abraham face to face? Remember NO ONE has SEEN the Father!

  Who was the Jehovah that wrestled with Jacob? Remember NO ONE has SEEN the Father!

  Jesus Christ is the incarnate Jehovah. He's NOT the Father!

  Acts 7:59 (King James Version)

  59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

  They were CALLING UPON God ... who? LORD JESUS!