jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  JosephMalik

  Jude considered the book of Enoch inspired and that is why he quoted a prophecy from this book.

  Lovelylil,

  Sure Enoch prophesied and so did a lot of others. Sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong. This does not mean that they did not prophesy. Jude, like James his brother was writing to Jews that once supported the Law while also Christians to make the point that this Law was no longer valid for salvation. And such Jews would have read the book of Enoch because it was also included with their scrolls in their temples but kept separated. That is why Jude could quote from it. It would still have been considered sacred to them but not inspired. And to who did Jude apply such words? To such Jews of course to whom he was writing like this: 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage. It was not to their benefit that he did this. Bur to other Jews also reading this letter not keeping the Law or under such condemnation Jude said: 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; Not Enoch's words but who's? The words of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not the same picture you are painting is it Lovelylil, and he made his point to them in a forceful way.

  Joseph
  
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  JosephMalik

  59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

  They were CALLING UPON God ... who? LORD JESUS!

  Sacolton,

  How did get this weird interpretation even using the word they for Stephen who was doing the calling? This same man also just envisioned this: 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Stephen knew they were both there when he called out to them. He wanted Jesus to receive his Spirit as he knew the God he appealed to had Jesus alongside Him also listening to this request.

  Joseph
• 

  isaacaustin

  How did get this weird interpretation even using the word they for Stephen who was doing the calling? This same man also just envisioned this: 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Stephen knew they were both there when he called out to them. He wanted Jesus to receive his Spirit as he knew the God he appealed to had Jesus alongside Him also listening to this request.

  Wrong Joseph. Why did you stop there and not include the next few verses? After seeing the vision Stephen was dragged outside the city. Then he was stoned. The vision was a thing of the past. His calling upon the lord to receive his spirit was long past the vision.
• 

  isaacaustin

  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
  	Act 7:56	And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Here is Steven having and speaking of his vision. Then...
  	Act 7:57	Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
  	Act 7:58	And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. Obviously some time later. The vision is over.
  	Act 7:59	And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
  	Act 7:60	And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
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  Amyfa

  I have found this quite interesting reading and have my own reason for believing Jesus is God.
  
  One day a person comes up to you and says here read this book and decide what God you want.
  The book is divided into 2 parts so you start reading the first part it starts of really nice telling us how the world was created. You start thinking what a nice person this God is (we find out later in the second part of the book who he really is) You carry on reading and after a while you start to read about this God killing everyone apart from 8 people and all the animals. So he almost starts again but people won’t worship him so he has them killed. Just because he can. You read that millions were killed. This God by the way is called Jehovah. This God wants and demands worship. As people had free will they wanted to do as they wished and not follow laws set by this God.
  
  Then we go onto the second part of the book and the God we find here is different from the other God. This God only has 2 commandments and they are about love he tells us to forgive people and not to judge them. He tells us to forgive them over and over again. He wants us to love one another. The name of this God is Jesus and it was through him all things were made. This God did lots of wonderful things because of love. This God then died for us not just for me but for everyone of us. So our sins could be forgiven.
  
  Now I believe that the God in the first part of the book did not really understand us humans so he had to empty himself of everything apart from Love and come down to live as one of us. Then he could see we needed guidance, love and understanding. Not to be bullied into worshiping him.
  
  If you had to choose which God was the best who would you chose
  
  As a Christian I know Jesus is my saviour
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  sacolton

  If Jesus were Michael, why doesn't the Bible read as such? For example:

  John 1:1 "In the beginning was Michael, and Michael was with God, and Michael was [a] god."

  Also, why didn't Michael just come down to Earth like the other angels in Genesis and become flesh?
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  JosephMalik

  The vision was a thing of the past.

  Issacaustin,

  No it wasn't. It was very much on Stephen's mind just a short time later when he called out. Do you really believe a short time made this vision go away or no longer applied? Do you have some proof that God and Jesus were no longer standing together?

  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  If Jesus were Michael, why doesn't the Bible read as such?

  Sacolton,

  For the same reason that it was also written in parables. Jesus explained it like this: Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. This also prevented tampering with the message to the point where it could no longer be recovered by the readers.

  Joseph
• 

  sacolton

  Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some cults have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.

  • Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.

  The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister — he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.

  • Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

  ‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.

  • Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).

  • Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

  This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.

  
  
  

  BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED.
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  isaacaustin

  The vision was a thing of the past.

  Issacaustin,

  No it wasn't. It was very much on Stephen's mind just a short time later when he called out. Do you really believe a short time made this vision go away or no longer applied? Do you have some proof that God and Jesus were no longer standing together?

  Joseph

  He was dragged outside the city. How short a time frame do you think that was? Yes, I beleive the vision was over. DO I have proof that God and Jesus were no longer standing together? No...do you have proof that they were? Either way, he prayed to Jesus and asked him to receive his spirit