jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Issac,

    You cannot stay with the verses can you? Always jumping somewhere else like the WTS. That is the only way Trinitiarianism with such distractions and distortions can exist. You divided the One God with your explanation. You merge Him with humanity because you do not understand what the words really mean. No scripture that say the Holy Spirit is God. But plenty of scriptures that teach that the Holy Spirit is in addition to God like this: Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. So God, all of God, those three persons you believe in has in addition to Himself Holy Spirit. That makes 4 of something associated with God not three.

    Joseph

    I stayed completely within the context of those verses. They just do not seem to fit your definitions which are tailored to your preconceived doctrines. I in no way divided the one God. I explained how the persons operate as one God, as one spiritual flesh. That is strawman logic you are trying on the '4'.

    Regarding no verses calling the Holy Spirit God...only in a mind that needs to overlook that to support their own preconceived doctrine...to give you a few...

    Ps 78

    17 But they continued to sin against him,
    rebelling in the desert against the Most High.

    18 They willfully put God to the test
    by demanding the food they craved.

    They put God to the test...ok...

    Isaiah say in ch 63

    10 Yet they rebelled
    and grieved his Holy Spirit.
    So he turned and became their enemy
    and he himself fought against them.

    Oh wow. He identifies the person of the Divine Being.

    Deut 32:

    12 The LORD alone led him;
    no foreign god was with him.

    WHo led Israel? God, Yahweh. Ok.

    You must not like Isaiah Joseph...

    ch 63: 14 like cattle that go down to the plain,
    they were given rest by the Spirit of the LORD.
    This is how you guided your people

    to make for yourself a glorious name.

    or how about Zechariah in Luke when he regained his ability to speak- filled with the Holy Spirit he said in ch 1:

    68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people.
    69 He has raised up a horn [d] of salvation for us
    in the house of his servant David
    70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),

    Who spoke thru the holy prophets?

    2nd Pet 1: 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    and don't forget

    2 Co 3: 17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.

    Which I know you won't take at face value.

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    "‘My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’" John 10:27-33

    No one can snatch them out of MY (Jesus) hand.

    No one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

    I and the Father ARE ONE!

    He CLAIMED TO BE GOD.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi sacolton i thought this one had become a dusty achive but in response let me show my favourite scripture....

    3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    peter's words after jesus's resurrection and still clearly showing jesus as God's son and not God.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    They just do not seem to fit your definitions,

    Issac,

    The trinity defines the Father as a person. Where in scripture is the Father called a Person? The Father has a name, The Son has a name. What is the name of the Holy Spirit? The problem is yours not mine. Just arguments without context, reason or end.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    equador,

    This simply shows that you believe in unsupported statements manufactured by people that suppressed the freedom our Lord gave us to serve Him. Just as it is written: 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Joseph

  • ecuador
    ecuador

    So the Father is not a person because the Bible doesn't say so? Is Jesus a person? What is your point?

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    There are scriptures that refer to the Holy Spirit as being the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Spirit of Christ", or "Spirit of the Son" "the Spirit of the Father" If the Son and Father are persons then this certainly does not make the Spirit a non person.

    Heb.9:14 he is called the eternal Spirit. Because he is in us, the Scripture equates him as God in us (Rom.8:9-10, 1Cor.3:16, 6:19, Jn.14:23, 15:4, 1 Jn.4:12-13,15) He is omnipresent since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously and he is called God 1 Cor.6:19. He is omniscient 2 Cor.2:10 "the Spirit searches the deep things of God." Only God can know the infinite things contained in himself. Luke 12.12: for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." I Cor. 2.13: "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit," How is this possible without language or communication.

    Rom.8:27 He has a mind (proving he is personal). Rom.15:30 he has love which only those with intelligence and personality express. Eph.4:30 he is grieved. Heb.10:29 he can be insulted. He can be blasphemed. Mt.12:32 Tells us all sins committed against the Son will be forgiven but the sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This certainly affirms he is neither a force nor a mere creature. Only an eternal sin cannot be forgiven, which means it is against the eternal God.

    John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth ."

    John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    John 16.7: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." Not it to you! To the disciples who were grieving, if the Spirit were an impersonal force it would no way comfort or replace a real person. Imagine saying don’t worry you’ll have electricity or a force!

    Jn.14:26, 1Cor.2:13 He teaches us Gal.5:18, Rom.8:9 he is our guide. These are important functions of someone who is alive, with emotion and personal interaction. How can he do this for all believers unless he has the omnipresence and omniscience that God has. Rom.8:26-27 groans along with us, he intercedes for us to the Father ( this gives him personality and feelings) 1 Thess.1:6 he Gives us joy. He also hears from the Father Jn.16:13 and he is able to testify of the Son Jn.15:26. The Spirits role is to convince unbelievers of sin righteousness and judgment, this means intelligence. The Spirit is also attributed to being the author of Holy Scripture which gives him communication skills also part of intelligence. In Rev.14:13 we find the Spirit speaks from heaven saying "write." All these characteristics give personal identity to the Holy Spirit, which makes him a personal and distinct from the father and the Son.

    In the OT. he is called the Spirit of the Lord (Yahweh) Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 2 Sam. 23:2, 1 Kings 18:12 Isa.11:2, 40:13 He is called the Spirit of God (Elohim) Gen.1:2, 1 Sam. 19:20,23. 2 Sam. 23:2;1 Cor. 3:16, 7:40 the Spirit of our God 1 Cor.6:11, His Spirit Num.11:29, My Spirit Gen.6:3 Spirit of the living God 2 Cor.3:3, He is called the Spirit of the Father Mt.10:20. The Spirit of the Lord God Isa.61:1 If the Spirit is God (which he is) then his name would also be called Yahweh just as the Father and the Son are. Since they are all God they all share in common the same name. In the NT. He is called the Spirit of grace Heb.10:24, The Spirit of life Rom.8:2, of truth Jn.14:17, Holiness Rom. 1:4, Spirit of Glory 1 Pt.4:14 showing he has the same glory shared with both the Father and the Son. These are descriptive of his attributes which all three persons share in. He is called God 1 Cor.6:19. It is Paul that states we are the temple of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 8:11 , 1 Cor.3:16, 6:19) 2 Cor.6:16 "For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell I will dwell I will dwell in them and walk among them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people." If God says he will be in us, and it is the Holy Spirit in us, doesn’t that make him God? God is personal.

    He speaks to man: Isa.6:8-9 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' Paul in the NT. applies this scripture giving the credit to the Holy Spirit for saying it. The Isa.59:21 the Spirit gave the men the words.

    Mark 13.11: Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 1.16: and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus

    In Acts 5 Peter confronted Annanias and Sapphira said you have lied to the Holy Spirit vs.3 he then says you have not lied to man but to God v.4 in reference to his first rebuke. Since Jesus said God is Spirit in Jn.4 this should settle any conflict. The Holy Spirit's work is evident from creation onward, there is no reason not to come the conclusion that the Spirit is God. He makes Jesus known just as Jesus made the Father known.

    Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

    Acts 10:19: "While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you."

    Acts 11:12: "Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house."

    Acts 13.2: "While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

    Acts 28:25-27: "The Holy Spirit spoke spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, "saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."

    I Tim 4.1: "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits

    Heb.3.7: "So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice."

    Rev 14:13: "Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "amen," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

    Rev. 22.17: "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Both have intelligence.

  • ecuador
    ecuador

    Wait just a minute, to be a person, one has to be human? according to the dictionary, one definition of a person is the following. Person - Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being. Each member of the Godhead fits this. One doesn't have to be human to be a person. Jesus is both human and God.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Heb.9:14 he is called the eternal Spirit. Because he is in us, the Scripture equates him as God in us

    Sac,

    So the Trinity is not Father, Son, Spirit anymore according to your reasoning. It now includes us in great numbers so that God is now Father, Son, Spirit, Man in great numbers. Anything else I should know? Or maybe the verse really teaches: 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! Which verse is the truth?

    Joseph

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