jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Reniaa,

    Here we go again with the arguement Joseph raised about the "form of God". Phillipians 2 is not even addressing what type of form God is in, it is addressing the fact that "in form" or "nature" Jesus was EQUAL to God. You both keep missing the point entirely of this text. Stop harping on the word "form" and read the rest of Phillipians 2:6 in its context.

    Paul is saying Jesus gave up his equality with God and came to earth as a servant in the form of a man.

    One Last Time - Paul said Jesus did not hold onto (grasped) his equality with God, but gave it up.

    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature [ a ] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature [ b ] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    If Paul is stating Christ was equal with God, why do you keep saying he was not????

    And for that matter;

    When the Apostle John states Jesus WAS God, why do you keep saying he was not????

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    When the ancient Jews tried to stone Christ for blashemy because THEY understood that to be the Son of a God, he must be equal in nature to that God, why do you keep saying it is not so????

    John 5:18
    For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, makinghimself equal with God.

    Do you understand that the Bible is the word of God and that you must accept the testimony of it, as it is written, not pick and choose what fits your own preconcieved ideas or what you want to be true?

    The Jews stumbled over the divinity of Christ, and you are stumbling over it too.

    Peace, Lilly

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    All right, Reniaa. I will respond to your comments on John 2:13-25, which says:

    13
    10 11 Since the Passover of the Jews was near, Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
    14
    12 He found in the temple area those who sold oxen, sheep, and doves, 13 as well as the money-changers seated there.
    15
    He made a whip out of cords and drove them all out of the temple area, with the sheep and oxen, and spilled the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables,
    16
    and to those who sold doves he said, "Take these out of here, and stop making my Father's house a marketplace."
    17
    14 His disciples recalled the words of scripture, "Zeal for your house will consume me."
    18
    At this the Jews answered and said to him, "What sign can you show us for doing this?"
    19
    Jesus answered and said to them, 15 "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up."
    20
    The Jews said, "This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, 16 and you will raise it up in three days?"
    21
    But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
    22
    Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken.
    23
    While he was in Jerusalem for the feast of Passover, many began to believe in his name when they saw the signs he was doing.
    24
    But Jesus would not trust himself to them because he knew them all,
    25
    and did not need anyone to testify about human nature. He himself understood it well.

    http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john2.htm

    Now, Reniaa, you are correct that Jesus is showing respect for the Father, who is the first person of the Trinity. However, the fact that the Son is respectful of the Father, who is the head of the family that is the Trinity, does not mean that the Son is not part of that family. You are deliberately misunderstanding the Trinity: it is three persons in one God, not three separate Gods.

    The problem I have with your little scripture quote is that you are using it (badly) as a proof text but you aren't addressing even remotely why this incident was recorded in the Bible in the first place. As the WTS taught you to do, you are not looking at the context of what was being taught. Why was this written done? What are we supposed to learn from it? It wasn't written to be used by Dubs 1900 years later. It was written to teach something. Here is a wonderful homily I've found that was given by the Holy Father that discusses this text. It's not that long and is very clearly written. It goes into the money-changers in the temple about seven paragraphs in but read the whole thing anyway, it's interesting:

    Palm Sunday Homily: 16 March
    Pope Benedict XVI

    True worship means 'love to the end'

    The following is a translation from Italian of the Holy Father's Palm Sunday Homily during Mass in St. Peter's Square, 16 March [2008].

    Dear Brothers and Sisters,

    Year after year the Gospel passage for Palm Sunday recounts Jesus' entry into Jerusalem. Together with his disciples and an increasing multitude of pilgrims he went up from the plain of Galilee to the Holy City.

    The Evangelists have handed down to us three proclamations of Jesus concerning his Passion, like steps on his ascent, thereby mentioning at the same time the inner ascent that he was making on this pilgrimage.

    Jesus was going toward the temple — toward the place where God, as Deuteronomy says, had chosen to "make his name dwell" (cf. 12:11; 14:23). God who created heaven and earth gave himself a name, made himself invocable; indeed, he made himself almost tangible to human beings. No place can contain him, yet for this very reason he gave himself a place and a name so that he, the true God, might be personally venerated as God in our midst.

    We know from the account of the12 year-old Jesus that he loved the temple as his Father's house, as his paternal home. He now visits this temple once again but his journey extends beyond it: the final destination of his climb is the Cross. It is the ascent described in the Letter to the Hebrews as the ascent towards the tent not pitched by human hands but by the Lord, which leads to God's presence.

    The final climb to the sight of God passes through the Cross. It is the ascent toward "love to the end" (cf. Jn 13:1), which is God's true mountain, the definitive place of contact between God and man.

    During his entry into Jerusalem, the people paid homage to Jesus as the Son of David with the words of the pilgrims of Psalm 118[117]: "Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!" (Mt 21:9).

    He then arrived at the temple. There, however, in the place that should have been taken op by the encounter between God and man, he found livestock merchants and money-changers who occupied this place of prayer with their commerce.

    Certainly, the animals on sale were destined to be burned as sacrifices in the temple, and since in the temple it was impossible to use coins that bore the likeness of the Roman emperors, who were in opposition to the true God, they had to be exchanged for coins that did not show the idolatrous image.

    All this, however, could have taken place elsewhere: the place where this was now occurring should have been, in accordance with its destined purpose, the atrium of pagans.

    Indeed, the God of Israel was precisely the one God of all peoples. And although pagans did not enter, so to speak, into the Revelation, they could however, in the atrium of faith, join in the prayer to the one God.

    The God of Israel, the God of all people, had always been awaiting their prayers too, their seeking, their invocations. Instead, commerce was prevailing — dealings legalized by the competent authority which, in its turn, profited from the merchants' earnings.

    House of prayer, not den of thieves

    The merchants acted correctly, complying with the law in force, but the law itself was corrupt. "Covetousness... is idolatry", the Letter to the Colossians says (3:5). This was the idolatry Jesus came up against in the face of which he cites Isaiah: "My house shall be called a house of prayer" (Mt 21:13; cf. Is 56:7), and Jeremiah: "But you make it a den of robbers" (Mt 21:13; cf. Jer 7:11).

    Against the wrongly interpreted order, Jesus with his prophetic gesture defends the true order which is found in the Law and the Prophets.

    Today, all this must give us, as Christians, food for thought.

    Is our faith sufficiently pure and open so that starting from it "pagans", the people today who are seeking and who have their questions, can intuit the light of the one God, associate themselves in the atriums of faith with our prayers and, with their questions, perhaps also become worshippers?

    Does the awareness that greed is idolatry enter our heart too and the praxis of our life? Do we not perhaps in various ways let idols enter even the world of our faith?

    Are we disposed to let ourselves be ceaselessly purified by the Lord, letting him expel from us and the Church all that is contrary to him?

    In the temple's purification, however, it was a matter of more than fighting abuses. A new time in history was foretold. What Jesus had announced to the Samaritan woman concerning her question about true worship is now beginning: "The hour is coming, and now is, when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him" (Jn 4:23).

    The time when animals were sacrificed to God was over. Animal sacrifices were only a substitute, a nostalgic gesture for the true way to worship God. The Letter to the Hebrews on the life and work of Jesus uses a sentence from Psalm 40[39]: "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me" (Heb 10:5).

    Christ's body, Christ himself, enters to take the place of bloody sacrifices and food offerings. Only love to the end", only love for human beings given totally to God is true worship, true sacrifice.

    Worshipping in spirit and truth means adoring in Communion with the One who is Truth; adoring in communion with his Body, in which the Holy Spirit reunites us.

    The Evangelists tell us that in Jesus' trial false witnesses were produced who asserted that Jesus had said: "I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days" (Mt 26:61). In front of Christ hanging on the Cross some people, taunting him, referred to these same words: "You who would destoy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself!" (Mt 27:40).

    The correct version of these words as Jesus spoke them has been passed on to us by John in his account of the purification of the temple. In response to the request for a sign by which Jesus could justify himself for such an action, the Lord replied: "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (Jn 2:18ff.).

    John adds that, thinking back to this event of the Resurrection, the disciples realized that Jesus had been referring to the Temple of his Body (cf. 2:21ff.). It is not Jesus who destroys the temple; it is left to destruction by the attitude of those who transformed it from being a place for the encounter of all peoples with God into a "den of robbers", a haven for their dealings.

    An opportunity to love God more

    But as always, beginning with Adam's fall, human failure becomes the opportunity for us to be even more committed to love of God. The time of the temple built of stone, the time of animal sacrifices, is now passed: the fact that the Lord now expels the merchants does not only prevent an abuse but points to God's new way of acting. The new Temple is formed: Jesus Christ himself, in whom God's love descends upon human beings.

    He, by his life, is the new and living Temple. He who passed through the Cross and was raised is the living space of spirit and life in which the correct form of worship is made.

    Thus, the purification of the temple, as the culmination of Jesus' solemn entry into Jerusalem, is at the same time the sign of the impending ruin of the edifice and the promise of the new Temple; a promise of the kingdom of reconciliation and love which, in communion with Christ, is established beyond any boundary.

    St. Matthew, whose Gospel we are hearing this year, mentions at the end of the account of Palm Sunday, after the purification of the temple, two further, small events that once again have a prophetic character and once again make clear to us Jesus' true will.

    Immediately after Jesus' words on the house of prayer for all the people, the Evangelist continues: "And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple, and he healed them". In addition, Matthew tells us that children cried out. in the temple the acclamation of the pilgrims at the city gates: "Hosanna to the Son of David" (Mt 21:14ff.).

    Jesus counters the animal trade and fiscal affairs with his healing goodness. This is the temple's true purification.

    He does not come as a destroyer; he does not come with the revolutionary's sword. He comes with the gift of healing. He dedicates himself to those who, because of their ailments, were driven to the end of their life and to the margins of society.

    Jesus shows God as the One who loves and his power as the power of love. Thus, he tells us what will always be part of the correct worship of God: healing, serving and the goodness that cures.

    And then there are children who pay homage to Jesus as the Son of David and acclaim him the Hosanna. Jesus had said to his disciples that to enter the Kingdom of God it was essential to become once again like children. He himself, who embraces the whole world, made himself little in order to come to our aid, to draw us to God.

    In order to recognize God, we must give up the pride that dazzles us, that wants to drive us away from God as though God were our rival.

    To encounter God it is necessary to be able to see with the heart. We must learn to see with a child's heart., with a youthful heart not hampered by prejudices or blinded by interests.

    Thus, it is in the lowly who have such free and open hearts and recognize Jesus, that the Church sees her own image, the image of believers of all ages.

    Dear friends, let us join at this moment the procession of the young people of that time a procession that winds through the whole of history. Together with young people across the world let us go forth to meet Jesus.

    Let us allow ourselves to be guided toward God by him, to learn from God himself the right way to be human beings.

    Let us thank God with him because with Jesus, Son of David, he has given us a space of peace and reconciliation that embraces the world with the Holy Eucharist..

    Let us pray to him that we too may become, with him and starting from him, messengers of his peace, adorers in spirit and truth, so that his Kingdom may increase in us and around us. Amen.

    Taken from:
    L'Osservatore Romano
    Weekly Edition in English
    19 March 2008, page 3

    L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
    The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

    The Cathedral Foundation
    L'Osservatore Romano English Edition
    320 Cathedral St.
    Baltimore, MD 21201
    Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
    Fax: (410) 332-1069
    [email protected]

    I hope this helps you, Reniaa.

    StAnn

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    There are different views on the Trinity. But right now we are discussing the divinity of Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

    Lovelylil,

    Exactly and divinity does not mean Trinity. Other than meaning something like non-human or someone superior in power to us or our service to God no one realy know what divinity really means. It is used in a scary way most of the time or to make people think they are dumb. We see it used improperly so much when it actually appears only some three times in scripture on the nature of God and Christ who is simply like Him and who cannot be depicted by artwork. The three texts in question here are also translated as Godhead. There is a lot about divinity, divination (mostly bad stuff) and very little else of value. It is not a magic word that explains what you are teaching. And it does not mean that Jesus is God.

    Joseph

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Lilly,

    Very well put. Reminds me of my WTS days, when we were told to make sure that at least we proclaimed the Truth, even if nobody would listen.

    Be proud that you have proclaimed the truth of Our Lord, even though it appears Reniaa has a closed mind and heart.

    StAnn

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Ninja, I can't get your YouTube link to work.

    StAnn

  • Slappy
    Slappy
    Exactly and divinity does not mean Trinity.

    Are we arguing semantics now?

    2304?e??? [ theios / thi ·os /] adj . From 2316 ; TDNT 3:122 ; TDNTA 322 ; GK 2521 ; Three occurrences; AV translates as “divine” twice, and “Godhead” once. 1 a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks. 2 spoken of the only and true God, trinity. 2a of Christ. 2b Holy Spirit. 2c the Father. adj adj : adjective TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G2304

    Um...btw, did you read what I posted on what the term 'express image' meant and how that contrasted with 'image'? That appeared to make things clearer, at least from my perspective.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Reniaa,

    I have not been reading your posts other that quick scans. You seem to be doing fine and on the right side of this issue. The comments by everyone are just getting too long for an old man. I already have published information in more detail on my web site for anyone interested. I tried to keep it short and stay with a topic of interest. Paul is one of the least understood apostles in scripture. But he was at the tip of the spear when it comes to explaining doctinal matters simply and forcefully. Especially difficult to understand ones like this where common words are used in uncommon ways.

    Joseph

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Joseph,

    To posess divinity means you must be a God. Since the bible says there is only one true God and you are saying it is not Jesus, then you must think Jesus is a false god?

    Why can't you and Reniaa accept that Jesus was God "in the flesh" and that to be the Son of God, he must be equal in nature to the father?

    Also, why don't you accept the testimony of the Apostles Paul and John who say Jesus as the Son of God was equal in nature to the father and thus was what the Bible calls "God"?

    The Jews of Jesus day understood this; why can't you?

    Lilly

  • shamus100
    shamus100
    now you can continue to call me a liar

    Hi Reinna,

    I don't think you are a liar at all. Your candor is really appreciated.

    Internet forums do not always reflect who you are in person. It's easy to tell someone to f*ck off here, and much more difficult in real life. Just the way it works.

    You do much to attest to the sheer lunacy of Jehovahs Witnesses, if you realize this or not. In any event, enjoy posting your nonsense. I truly do hope that you are not the way that I percieve you - passive agressive. I suspect you are a very lonely person - which I think is sad. But hey, only you know who and what you are.

    Please - enjoy counting time, and please keep posting here. Nobody will ever listen.

    Jehovah has no bearing on us - no more than the boogey man. Jehovah cleans my bathroom. How's that for blasphemy?

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Reniaa,

    Repeat this as you fall asleep tonight:

    "Three persons in One God. Three persons in One God. Three persons in One God."

    Remember, the Trinity is essentially a family. All three members are individuals but are all part of one united family.

    For instance, I have a son. Our last name is Conn. So, in our family, there is Father Conn, Wife Conn, and Son Conn. We're all individuals yet we're all Conns, one united family. Think of "God" as the last name of the members of the Holy Trinity.

    I hope this helps you.

    StAnn

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