jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ellderwho

  Well this did: De 28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou bedestroyed.

  And 2Ki 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

  And then there is: Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

  Then again we know that: Da 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

  And of course we have: Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. The Son of man. Not some person of the Trinity.

  What say you? Your all over the board there Joe. Its ok not to want to answer, I know what it does to positions that are akin to yours.
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  isaacaustin

  Joseph, a straight reading of the Bible does not lead one to your conclusions. It takes a precoceived doctrine that you need to uphold...then a selective definition of the original language and many suppostions not there. I will not be back online till tomorrow morning so if you reply to this and don't hear back from me till then...that is why. My suggestion to you is to read the bible straight thru instead of as the dictionary you use it as.
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  ellderwho

  Joe, from nwt;

  Mat 3:3

  This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: "Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.'"

  Joh 1:23

  He said: "I am a voice of someone crying out in the wilderness, 'MAKE the way of Jehovah straight,' just as Isaiah the prophet said."

  Luk 3:4

  just as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: "Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people, make his roads straight

  Isa 40:3

  Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: "Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight.

  Oh that's right, you do not know the answer. You had to copy mine.

  Joseph

  LOL. Im afraid not Joe.
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  ellderwho

  Your funny Joe. Same result when we discussed Yahweh's glory. Why do you think I started off my post with the rhetorical questioning to you about the glory issue you so well skirted a couple years ago?
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  JosephMalik

  Elderwho,

  Makes no difference to me why you did it. This shows that you do not know what such verses mean and that is what needed to be shown to the readers.

  Joseph
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  isaacaustin

  I think it is safe to say that this thread has become one that is just spinning wheels, so to speak. I am done on this one I think. Joseph I apologize for any lack of respect I may have displayed to you in my posting here- I do not apologize for my points which i beleive are valid...only for any lack of respect I may have shown toward you.
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  ellderwho

  The question remains and your inability to answer it. Further who do you think John was reffering to?
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  Deputy Dog

  Hi ellderwho

  The really sad thing about this thread is, that we have two ex-JWs trying to defend WT doctrine. I have asked Joseph and reniaa about a passage John 6:33-58. I asked these questions because they seem to think they know who/what Jesus is not. I feel that if they really know who he is, then maybe, just maybe we should hear them out.

  My questions are simple, not hard to understand.

  1) When Jesus said "I am the bread of life that came down out of heaven" what came down?

  This presents some interesting problems for JW teaching. They teach that Jesus was just a man. That's fine except that would mean that someone who lived in heaven (as spirit in nature) came down to live in the flesh. What Joseph can't seem to see is that if anything came down, Jesus must have had, a dual nature, Spirit and flesh.

  Joseph's answer was, "his life" as if that's nothing. So that leads to my next question.

  2) If "life" means nothing, (I think it is something), what happened to the archangel, when the "life" of Michael/Jesus came down to earth and dwelt among us? Did the Angel cease to exist? This would present another problem for the JW. A man and an angel died.

  3) Did God kill him? Did he kill himself?...

  I don't want to put word in Joseph's mouth. But, he leaves us with few other options. The excuses that he does offers, come from either his mind or the WT, and don't really answer the question.

  Joseph now admits he can't answer from the scipture, (on page 19 of this thread) and now asks us for an answer, when many others, in this thread have already given the answers (from scripture) to my questions.

  He's going to have to try a little harder, before I spell it out for him.
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  ellderwho

  Deputy,

  This presents some interesting problems for JW teaching. They teach that Jesus was just a man. That's fine except that would mean that someone who lived in heaven (as spirit in nature) came down to live in the flesh. What Joseph can't seem to see is that if anything came down, Jesus must have had, a dual nature, Spirit and flesh.

  I dont want to confuse the WT issue further but along with what happened to Michael after the life was transferred to earth is the same problem with what happened to Christs fleshly body after three days in the tomb.

  I believe the wt response to the two points above is a remarkable strectch of the imagination, in that the WT has to get rid of to beings.

  a) one is the spirit Michael......by, as you put it, killing him or suicide

  b) the fleshly human body of Christ......disolved into gases, and Christ looking around for another body like his with the same holes in it.

  Finally who now resides in heaven and what is his name?

  Does Michael come back on the scene?

  I feel that a) represents Joe's problem because he has to get rid of Michael but doesnt go into detail on how this is done.
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  sacolton

  When Jesus was resurrected ... did He become Michael the Archangel again? What happens to Jesus? Michael becomes Jesus again in 1914 to take his Heavenly throne?