WANTED ! JW Apologist

by wobble 389 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  reniaa

  hi tenyearsafter interesting question I had to read it a few times but to get the point your making clearer. Are you saying someone can only have God's authority if they get a paul-like experience and then go on to be perfect/perfect-like or give up the majority of their false practises?

  moses went wrong he got punished and didn't see the promised land because of it but he remained the chosen one.

  God has always encouraged he people to be cleanliving imperfection and human hard-heartedness meant we often went wrong.

  Paul himself admited it, we constantly remain in sin while imperfect.

  Romans 7:22-24 (New International Version)

  22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

  but if you don't mean imperfection but actual practises, Jews were allowed to keep celebrating there old celebrations from the there old YHVH faith that Jesus fulfilled but gentiles not held to it.

  Are you saying the original JW leaders were unfit to be chosen? if you look at any leader including appostles they all came from sources from every walk in life and thought they joined that didn't guarantee that they would be able to stop, as paul said it was a continuous war. the nearest scripture to what you maybe saying is this...correct me if I am wrong.

  mathew 13: 24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

  27 "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

  28 " 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
  "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

  29 " 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

  Mathew 24:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

  37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

  40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

  So apparently until harvest time they will not see the wheat for the weeds only at harvest time will it become clearer, and before then those that died get resurrected
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  tenyearsafter

  Thank you Reniaa...and I agree that many of God's chosen ones strayed and sinned, but they did not practice falsehoods for any extended time...and as you pointed out, they were punished and repented.

  The problem I have, and I may not have been clear, is that if Jehovah chose the FDS in 1919 (as claimed by the WTBTS), why did those chosen people continue in "false worship"? The Bible Students still used the cross, celebrated holidays, worshipped Jesus, accepted military service and believed in aspects of Pyramidology and Astrology at the very time they were "chosen". They did not abandon these practices until many years later...would it make sense that the religions of the earth were examined at that time and God would choose a people who engaged in the same practices as the ones God rejected. I am not aware of them being punished after their being chosen for their trespasses against true worship.

  If "new light" being revealed as time went on is the answer to all of this, why would this be? Nearly 2000 years had already passed without approval of "apostate" Christendom...why would those very apostate practices now be overlooked during the Master's examination of the Slave? What made this small group of Adventist rooted people different from any other Millenial group of its day?

  I know these are alot of questions, but it really boils down to one...the entire JW authority as God's channel on earth hinges on this appointment as the FDS in 1919. What makes that so?...is it because the very people claiming that appointment say it is? I could say I was appointed by God as his channel, but I doubt anyone today would buy in to that premise...explain why it is any more plausible that it occurred in 1919 to a group practicing most of what Christendom did at that time...as claimed by the JW's. Thanks...
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  tenyearsafter

  Oompa...good points...meat in due season certainly wouldn't be rancid!
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  besty

  Of course you need to accept the premise that Jesus chose the WTS in 1919 - otherwise they have no basis for authority as leaders.

  Do you accept this premise Renaiaa? Yes or no will be fine thanks - I know you are busy.
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  wobble

  You might have along wait for an honest answer to a simple question from Reniaa Besty! I reckon about a thousand years!

  However,many many thanks to all contributors to this thread,it went better than I could have hoped,any lurker reading here must be able to see the problems with the WTB$ and there teachings.

  Thanks to all,

  Love

  Wobble
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  mrsjones5

  It's a win/win/win
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  Awakened at Gilead

  Since Reniaa mentioned me in this post and said taht I was avoiding these simple Bible truths, I will debunk her statements:

  "Here are some instances were I think Jws have it right...

  Jehovah is the almighty God - yes - Have you read about the theory of higher criticism? Do you know the difference between the E, J, P, Dtr1, Dtr2 writers? This theory would make YHWH just one of the local gods of the time, that gained prominence among later Israelites during the Babylonian exile.

  Jesus is Gods only begotten son not God - yes Jesus is called "God" several times in the scriptures: Isa9:6,7; John 1:1; John 20:28. You cannot ignore these scriptures.

  We are living souls that can die - yes no comment

  Is death, sheol the grave not a fire eternal torment - yes Yet Hades in the NTis associated with fire, i.e. Rich Man and Lazarus. "existing in torments". It's easy to sidestep this scripture since it doesn't agree with WT doctrine, but you cannot ignore it if you are unbiased.

  there is an earthly promise - Yes "the meek shall inherit the earth" Even the WT agrees this scripture applies to the anointed. You are misapplying scriptures:

  *** w03 4/1 p. 25 par. 20 Exhibit “All Mildness Toward All Men” ***

  Abundant blessings are in store for all who exhibit mildness. “Happy are the mild-tempered ones,” Jesus declared, “since they will inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:5) For Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers, maintaining mildness ensures their happiness and the privilege of ruling over the earthly domain of the Kingdom

  there is a heavenly promise that comes with rulership - yes "rulers and priest with jesus in heaven" The heavenly hope is in fact, the only hope in the NT. Even the great crowd is in heaven (Rev 19:1)

  there is an armageddon we should be prepared for - yes, we are warned in more places than I can count. Erm, Armageddon appears only 1 place in the Bible: Rev 16:16. So you can count, one.

  We should keep to a strict moral standard that doesn't even allow for divorce except for adultery - Yes the bible is clear on this in both hebrew and greek scriptures. Again, you are generalizing. The OT allowed divorce on many a ground. Even Ezra had the Israelites dismiss the foriegn wives because they were foreign (and not worshippers of Jah). On that basis, then, could a spouse divorce if their religious beliefs were different?

  Jesus prepared his appostles to be leaders and promised help with holy spirit - yes the scriptures are clear on this Yet the JWs have a quite nebulous view of HS, and feel that the helper today is really the WTS.

  Is a lie is predicted that will obscure the bible 'truth' for most of the time between Jesus leaving and returning - yes weeds and wheat will be harvested at the time of Judgement. And you assume that the wheat merely refers to the WTS today. I fail to see the correlation. As Besty pointed out, when the wheat began to be gathered, they were believing all sorts of lies. So they must have still been weeds. When exactly did they become wheat? The WTS claims it was 1919, even though you claim that they do noty state that date:

  *** w81 8/1 p. 23 par. 9 Harvesting in the “Time of the End” ***

  When, after 1914, did the Son of man “send forth his angels” to separate the “sons of the kingdom” from “the sons of the wicked one,” the imitation “wheat,” that is, “persons who are doing lawlessness” and who include the “man of lawlessness,” the religious leaders of counterfeit Christianity? The answer must correspond with the facts, and these show that it was in 1919 that the spirit-begotten, anointed “sons of the kingdom,” symbolized by the “wheat,” began to be freed from the “weeds,” or false Christians, that had overrun the religious field of mankind.

  Does the bible show that not all who call on Jesus's name with be saved - yes You blew it... Rom 3:23 mistranslated uses the name Jehovah, not Jesus. I say mistranslated because the greek text does not use the YHWH. So to insert the name Jehovah is a mistranslation, as I have attempted to show you. There are no manuscripts with the name Jehovah in the NT.

  And there are so many more that Jws are spot on. On another thread Awakened picked up some of the more deeper logical constructs to argue on but avoided all these simple ones that they have right just by bible examination. Do I think they have made mistakes especially with dates - Yes, are they forgivable mistakes personally I think yes because I know how easy it is to be eager when you are trying to be prepared for something, but as to whether they are truly forgivable it is for God to judge not me,

  You now have my answer to almost all of your points, and I highlight your inconsistencies. If the WTS cannot get these simple points right, then surely your faith is in a man-made organization, not in God nor his holy book.
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  BizzyBee

  there is an armageddon we should be prepared for - yes, we are warned in more places than I can count. Erm, Armageddon appears only 1 place in the Bible: Rev 16:16. So you can count, one.

  Good catch, Awakened. Another example of confusing WT literature (filled with the threat of Armageddon) with Holy Scripture.
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  Awakened at Gilead

  Exactly, BB... and the description of Armageddon in Revelation is so vague that it has been the subject of speculation for the past 1900 years. How Reniaa can believe that the WTS has that point right is mind-boggling.
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  besty

  How Reniaa can believe that the WTS has that point right is mind-boggling.

  You can belief anything if you are captive of a concept.

  Hence my question to Reniaa :

  Of course you need to accept the premise that Jesus chose the WTS in 1919 - otherwise they have no basis for authority as leaders. Do you accept this premise Reniaa? Yes or no will be fine thanks - I know you are busy