by UnDisfellowshipped 123 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
QuietlyLeaving said:
"undisfellowshipped, I don't think the catholic view and the protestant view [of the Trinity] are the same"
It is my understanding that both Catholics and Protestants accept the same Christian creeds on the Trinity, and from what I have learned, they both believe and teach all of the things I posted above.
It's possible I am wrong, and please let me know if there are some differences between the Catholic Trinity and the Protestant Trinity.
Cattails said:
"So according to those two there was a time when they weren't EQUAL in Power since Jesus "had certain human limitations while He was on earth". Do I get some kind of prize for finding out there is no such thing as an Eternal EQUAL Trinity?"
Paul wrote about Christ and said this:
"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Colossians 2:9, ESV)
So, ALL of the Nature or Essence of Deity dwelt in Jesus' Human Body while He was on earth (and still today in heaven). He did not give up any of His Deity while on earth.
But, He did willingly limit the use of His power, knowledge, glory, etc. and, as a Man, He grew, learned, gained wisdom, got tired, got hungry, and experienced all of the same temptations that we do, except that He did not sin.
By becoming a Man, Jesus did not lose any of His God-Nature, but He did add Human Nature.
Cattails said:
"John 13:16, Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me."(John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father(John 14:26) and Jesus(John 16:7,13), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus."
The President of the United States has a greater position or rank than we do, but that does not make us inferior in NATURE, does it? We are all equally human in nature, aren't we? Same thing applies to God. All 3 Persons have different "positions" or "functions," but each are equally God in Nature.
Cattails said:
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
I agree. Jesus, the Son, prays to God, the Father. That doesn't say anything about their Nature.
Cattails said:
Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
I agree. Jesus, as a Man, put His trust in The Father, who had a greater position than He did.
Cattails said:
Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
Paul explains:
Philippians 2:6-7 (ESV): who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Christ has always existed in the Nature of God and had equality with God, but then He humbled Himself and emptied Himself, and took on the form of a human servant of God.
Cattails said:
Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
As a Man, there were some things Jesus did not know. As for Revelation 1:1, God gave Jesus this Revelation in the sense that The Father commanded it, or willed it, and it comes through The Son, like everything else.
Cattails said:
John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
Yes, He does. This doesn't say anything about their Nature.
Cattails said:
Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
Yes, once again, I agree. As a Man, Jesus has a God over Him, The Father, whom He worships.
Cattails said:
1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God. 1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God. Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
I agree with those teachings.
Cattails said:
Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God. Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God. Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God. Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God. Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God. Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God. Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the right hand of God. 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
I agree with all of those teachings. None of the things you posted come anywhere near refuting the Trinity. They are fully in agreement with the Biblical Trinity teaching.
Jesus did promise that He would raise Himself from the dead:
John 2:19-21 (ESV): Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
John 10:17-18 (ESV): For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."
Cattails said:
Philippians 2:6 Jesus did not believe being one with God was possible
Re-read that verse in different translations, and read up on a few commentaries, and you will see that Php 2:6 is teaching that Jesus was equal to God.
Not only that, there is no way you can deny that it says that Jesus always existed in the FORM OF GOD (or Very Nature of God, NIV).
How can someone exist in the Very Nature of God, and not be God? If Jesus was not, God, then who was He?
Middleman,
Absolutely! You have my full, 100% permission and approval to use what I wrote in a PDF.
Thank you!
What about Horus?
androb31-Or is it possible that Jesus is Jehovah (the Son)?
30 I and the Father are one."
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
All the best,
Stephen
Hi, UnDisfellowshipped.
Sorry.
Since all my post disappeared by my mistake, I reply later.
Thank you for much reply.
possible
Satanus / BTS
It seems to me that theology and mysticism are perceived in a much less antagonistic way in Eastern Christianity than in the West. Which might be traced back to the oft-stereotyped difference between the Latin and Greek mindsets (legal and rhetorical ratio vs. "theoretical," i.e. speculative or contemplative logos), but an equally important factor imo is the Aristotelian turn of Western scholastic theology in the late middle-ages. Anyway, what is essentially here a matter for abstract rational(ising) argument is mostly an icon there -- a gate (or a mirror) to mystical contemplation. Discuss, or behold.
Which means that the transition from one mode (theological) to another (mystical) is different too. We tend to think of it in a binary manner -- yes and no, life and death, etc.; (our type of) logic ("reason / language") has to be "switched off" in a quasi-suicidal manner to enter a completely wordless "X" about which only negative linguistic expression seems (half-)adequate. Western mysticism goes hand in hand with apophatic theology. Eckhart, Suso, Tauler come to mind but San Juan de la Cruz too). In the East, from my perception, the transition is smoother from a less abstract form of theo-logic (which is inseparable from liturgy) to a less a-logic form of mysticism. The "ineffable" may be a very different experience for a lawyer and a poet. Cf. also the centrality of violence, suffering and death in Western cross theology vs. the "epiphanic," revelatory character in the Eastern theology of transfiguration, resurrection etc.
(Btw, and this is a good illustration of the above, St. Thomas Aquinas' rationalisation of the Trinity from the Aristotelian perspective of divine simplicity actually depends on a functional analysis of subject/object distinction; the Son ek-sists from the act of God knowing himself; the Spirit from God loving himself.)
All these posts leave me with more questions than answers. It seems to me that you can twist the scriptures to mean just about anything. I can't say I agree with any of the Father and Son being equal stuff what so ever. However, there is many areas open to translation so if you feel a certain way, enjoy it, cause I am sure God gets a kick out of all of us being so inept in this area of understanding.
Maybe one day all of us will know what it all means. Meanwhile, Jesus said, love the Father with your whole heart, whole soul, and whole mind. And love your neighbor.
So I love you guys.
Thats it.
MaryAcclaim
Hi,
For sure, it is easy to get side tracked and confused but it isn't that difficult!
All the best,
Stephen
