Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?

by metatron 122 Replies latest jw friends

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  metatron

  I love it when a thread like this continues and eventually generates the appearance of a Watchtower apologist out of nowhere. After so many needle-like, specific points made, someone has to come forward and try to generally cheerlead for the Governing Frauds.

  Interactive family studies? Like the organization has been doing for the past several decades? You get the kids to offer the correct answers in great detail. Then, the hormones hit, and you find out they're living a 'double life'. And the statistics support it: the Watchtower Mass Youth Exodus continues unabated. The Assemblies and their Dramas exist to deceive Witnesses into thinking that something is being done or something will change.

  Witness families can't do it. As one elder friend admitted, the organization has no infrastructure to take care of problems - and what little structure they did have is being torn down due to legal and financial problems. A few years ago, they printed an attractrive brochure encouraging young people to consider Bethel service at the same time they were downsizing Bethel.

  So, Witnesses have a "conscience" now? Really? When will taking a blood transfusion be a matter of conscience? When will they stop "Hospital Liaison Committees" from hovering over the sick beds of suffering people to monitor their compliance - or quietly threaten them with the practical loss of their friends and family thru disassociation? Do you really expect the Governing Body's collective conscience to change and stop this repugnant behavior?

  Will the conscience of the Governing body cause them to stop baptising teenagers - and then, often disfellowshipping them? If baptising children is wrong, why is baptising teenagers right?

  metatron
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  Spike Tassel

  it's a matter of personal responsibility before Jehovah, for each and every issue you mention, metatron
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  AllTimeJeff

  I don't think that Jehovah's Witnesses will ever be the same. The best thing they ever did since advertising 1914 and changing their name in 1935 was how they managed the 1975 debacle. After 1980, they kicked out all perceived dissenters, got the "Live Forever" book going, and boomed in the US and around the world. Still promoting 1914 and the generation, the Governing Body was still intrinsically linked to dates and time prophecies, the calling card of this 20th century sect.

  Until 1995, when the generation teaching changed, everything was great. But they knew, the GB I mean, that they really didn't know, they had to make that concession on generation.

  Great point on how JW's were not supposed to be around in the 21st century. All of this is adaptive.

  If 1914 means anything, (it doesn't) then whats the point of being a JW and preaching with urgency? If there is no date, there is no urgency. If there is no urgency, then they will decline in membership.

  I still don't know if "collapse" will happen. But they are definitely on the other side of their peak. They will eventually wind down. I predict in 20 years they will still be around in some form, with a totally unrecognizable dogma from the dogma I knew, grew up with, and was taught to believe
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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Great thread. Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I think the WT Society is going to keep doing just fine for the foreseeable future. Why? Two words: estate planning.

  If you've been to a Kingdom Hall in the past few years, you have probably noticed that a disproportionate number of Witnesses are elderly. These are your loyal, died-in-the-wool JWs. These folks are the ones most likely to leave a significant portion of their estates to the WTS. Sure, most of them are not wealthy, but many of them own a modest house and may have some savings. Also, it's not uncommon for these loyal elderly JWs to be childless. In this case, who else would they leave their estate to?

  Let's estimate that the average elderly Witness in the USA/Western Europe has an estate valued at $100,000. If only 1,000 such Witnesses die next year and leave their $100k estate to the Society, that's $100 million. I don't have any inside information, but I wouldn't be surprised if the WTS brings in hundreds of millions of dollars each year from the estates of dead Witnesses. Over the next 10 years or so, lots of these elderly JWs will die off...and this will create a financial windfall for the WTS.

  Now, I don't think this is sustainable in the long term because the next generation of JWs (baby boomers) had more children because they weren't around for Rutherford's "wait until the new system to have kids" teaching. Thus, when the boomers die off, they will likely leave only a portion of their estate to the WTS--if anything at all.
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  verystupid77

  I think I agree with Jeff. I just do not see it being around like it is. Only mentally unstable people are coming into the truth right now in my area. Ones with no Internet and no way to really think for themselves. It is really sad seeing people who have no real mind listening to the meetings and the witnesses who are studying with them are love bombing them. These mentally unstable one are soaking it all up and it is just sad to watch. But they have nothing to give the WT and that is the only ones that are coming in. No normal person with Internet is coming anywhere near a kingdom hall.
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  willyloman

  "If 1914 means anything, (it doesn't) then whats the point of being a JW and preaching with urgency? If there is no date, there is no urgency. If there is no urgency, then they will decline in membership."

  The last time I went out in FS was 2003 and I worked with a 40-year-old MS whose company I enjoyed. Going d-to-d in a virtually empty territory (no one home), there was a lot of time to talk. He was lamenting how few dubs went out in service anymore - he and his wife were out almost every weekend but he was well aware that most dubs remained invisible, at least on Saturday when he was able to get out.

  This guy had been raised in it and could remember when FS attendance was much better attended. He said he just didn't understand it.

  I told him the lack of urgency he was seeing was a direct result of the change in the "generation" teaching that the WTS unveiled in 1995. He seemed confused, so I spelled it out, telling him that the absence of a date had changed the dynamic for the average JW and that the "friends" were obviously pacing themselves for the long haul.

  He was wide-eyed, because he had been totally unaware of the 1995 doctrinal change. Over time, I realized that he was not alone. The vast majority of dubs don't read their own literature, or "study," or pay any attention to the doctrines as they come and go. They learn a few basic JW-approved "truths" and shut off their minds.

  For this reason, they will be a long time going out of business. But that lack of urgency has already killed their collective zeal and the org will never be the same.
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  besty

  I think the WTS has been in long term decline since the late 1950's - those massive conventions in NYC were it's golden moment.

  Yes there has been strong numerical growth (flattened off in recent decades and is barely above population growth now) but this is masking a changing demographic and a loss of motivation.

  Step changes have been IMHO the 1975 debacle, the loss without replacement of R Franz, the 1995 generation change, the advent of the Internet, and the secret child abuse settlements.

  What will the next step change be?

  A very high level apostate? New light that proves to be unpalatable to the rank and file? Another wave of successful child abuse claims? Being banned in a major European country? (not sure that would help our cause) Workers rights legislation for all 'volunteers'? Creeping Health and Safety and Public Liability and Charitable Public Benefit legislation that gradually erodes and undermines the preaching work?

  I think right now we are in a holding pattern waiting for the next big event to take effect. Jaracz and Barr on the way out. Although TJ clones remain. Who knows if new GB members may mix it up and mess it up?

  The problem us lot have is that we are at risk from confirmation bias - we are looking for and interpret information in a way that suits our agenda. Until such time as we have a recently defected high level Bethelite (Brooklyn or maybe London) we don't have the real inside track.
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  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  Besty: "I think right now we are in a holding pattern waiting for the next big event to take effect."

  True. "Wait on Hojovah!"

  OMGhost: "I don't have any inside information, but I wouldn't be surprised if the WTS brings in hundreds of millions of dollars each year from the estates of dead Witnesses. Over the next 10 years or so, lots of these elderly JWs will die off...and this will create a financial windfall for the WTS."

  They have been harvesting lots of money from the faithful for over 15 years with "Planned Giving Desk". I don't know the particulars, but from what I'd heard, it began a decline after the tech bubble burst in '01. I doubt that it has or ever will get better. Sure, they're still bringing in money, but it's hard when there are decreases. It's hard to trim a budget year after year, particularly when trying to give the appearance of affluence.

  My own parents have remarked about the frequent appeals for money. They're retired now and can't keep giving. In this economy and with little education, nobody in the cong is making equivalent money to what the previous "generation" of dubs were.

  Spike: "The TRUTH, Jehovah's Word, is actually more adhered to all the time, in my honest opinion. I don't read "membership" anywhere in the Bible, but I do read of Jehovah's Universal Sovereignty throughout as the theme. The congo meetings I attend has at least 2 former sub-COs in it, and several former presiding overseers in it; I really like it, even though I've got a lot to get right socially. The end is coming exactly as foretold, as a thief in the night! Switching to JWN a few days before my DC was just the right time for me. I'm keeping on the watch just fine here, using my Bible in various translations. The purchasing of them over the last few years is really paying off now. Insanity is like the fog, I think. After a while with it I adapt and get along just fine. It's about not pretending that the sky is clear."

  That's great Spike, you should get baptized... for real this time. And hurry before Jehovah slaughters you with the unbelievers. Then pioneer and become a CO. And then the very biggest challenge you would ever face?... Find the expression "Jehovah's Universal Sovereighty" in any Bible, even the NWT. It's all fabricated. And they're fabricating more and more stuff all the time. Before you say, "But the issue is explained...", remember that the teaching of the rapture is more clearly explained than the teaching of the existance of some "Governing Body".

  verystupid77: "Only mentally unstable people are coming into the truth right now in my area."

  Same situation in the last three congs I was in. Their teachings are getting more and more "out there". Many of the stable people that have been dubs for years are either leaving or less involved than they used to be.

  B the X
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  freedomisntfree

  Me and my long d'fed sister have talked about this extensivly; if nothing drastic happens politically to fufill the last days stuff in the next ten years there will be a massive "falling away" BUUUUTTTT unfortunatly the wt will spin it to their advantage.They scorn the unbelivers push up the evangilical dogma and tell the remaining few they re very very special and important and the only true belivers.Theyll be able to keep thoose few poor individuals for the rest of their lives but growth will stop.
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  Spike Tassel

  ATJ, I expect that "dogma" is all but gone, even now, it's becoming more about principles and practical life, rather than "doctrine". The celestial chariot changes its emphasis and direction in anticipation of some curves and in response to others.

  B the X, actually finding the expression "Jehovah's Universal Sovereignty" is bound to be in quite a few Bibles, in pencil or pen, in the margins or other white space. I'm sure I could have put it is at least one of mine over the 20 years since I got my first NWT. Mental stability is part of what attracts me too!

  Freedomisntfree, actually quite a bit is happening "politically to fulfill the last days stuff". Obama's presidential moves and Benny XVI's papal moves all fit quite well, as does the recent Canadian Supreme Court decision on mature minors and medical treatment, to name just 3. I expect that to continue since it is Jehovah who is in charge of the fulfillment of true prophecy, which is what the Bible is. Growth will continue to expand, in fulfillment of Isaiah 11:9, until the earth is "filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea."