More grief for You Know:
:: The proof that the Society claims to be inspired is simple: I provided quotes that state directly that JW leaders are taught in some mysterious fashion by angels.
: This is more slight of hand Fraudbacker.
Sleight of hand to you obviously means, "anything I have trouble twisting".
: For example, I believe that the angels do have an active part in guiding the organization as well as our thought processes.
That's inspiration, dummy. The definition of "inspiration" is "guided by a supernatural being", and so by definition, anyone guided by God or angels is inspired.
The trouble with you JWs is that you fail to think this thing through. You never really think about just how God or angels supposedly guide you. Let's do that now by examining exactly what it takes to guide someone.
Guidance is a form of influence. How can any being have an influence on another? There are only two basic ways -- through some kind of internal means, or external means.
An external influence would include things like the written word, and setting up circumstances that nudge the person in a certain direction. But these external nudgings certainly don't constitute inspiration, since a person always has the option of rejecting the written word or not following in the desired direction. An external influence, therefore, is a passive form of guidance, since the one doing the guiding does not have an active part in causing the other person to act. It's like when someone wants to influence someone to go somewhere by writing a letter and including a map. The receiver can obey the instructions in the letter or not. He can read the map or not. He can read the map and misinterpret what it says. If the person perfectly interprets the map, it can be said that in a manner of speaking, the map maker guided the map reader -- but that is only a manner of speaking. The map maker certainly did not actively guide the reader. The map maker could be dead, and dead people do not actively guide anyone. Because true inspiration cannot be disobeyed, an external influence therefore cannot constitute inspiration. Therefore only an internal influence can constitute inspiration.
What is an internal influence? Obviously it is something that affects the mind, that causes one to do someone one would not have done absent the influence. That is exactly what is supposed to have occurred with Bible writers and prophets who were inspired. God or angels caused them to think or act in a way that they would not otherwise have done. Clearly, this internal influence is not passive, but active. An attempt at influence that fails is not inspiration.
Now apply these concepts to interpreting the Bible. Like a map reader, a Bible reader can misinterpret what he reads. And like a map maker, the maker of the Bible can at best be said to passively guide a reader only if the reader perfectly interprets what he reads. In no case can the maker be said to actively guide the reader. Thus, there are two forms of guidance by supernatural beings -- passive and active. Only active guidance constitutes inspiration, since passive guidance is nothing more than reading and attempting to understand.
In view of the above, it is obvious that real inspiration is an active influence on the mind by supernatural beings that causes a person to act in a way that he or she would not have acted if the influence were absent. Similarly, real, active guidance by a supernatural being causes similar actions, and so true guidance by God or angels is exactly the same as being inspired by them. Let's put it succinctly:
A claim that God or angels are actively guiding someone is identical to claimng that the person is inspired.
Conversely, a claim that God or angels are passively guiding someone is not a claim of inspiration, and the notion of being "guided" is only a manner of speaking, because no actual direct influence takes place.
Thus, attempts by JW defenders to claim that real, active "guidance by God or angels" is different from inspiration are doomed to failure.
: Jesus made mention of the fact that angels oversee each of Jehovah's chosen ones and are responsible for guiding them on the path of salvation.
Which obviously constitutes inspiration.
: No one I know of, though, is aware of any direct communication with the spirit world to the extent of recieving extra-biblical inspired expressions.
So what? No one in his right mind today will claim inspiration. The claim of direct inspiration pegs one as a lunatic. That's why people like JW leaders today use all sorts of weasel words to claim inspiration without actually saying, "I am inspired".
Do Watchtower leaders claim that God and angels are actively guiding them by putting thoughts in their heads that they would not otherwise have had? Of course. I again quote from the horse's mouth:
<< Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it. >> (Preparation, 1933, pp. 36, 37.
<< These angels are invisible to human eyes and are there to carry out the orders of the Lord. No doubt they first hear the instruction which the Lord issues to his remnant and then these invisible messengers pass such instruction on to the remnant. >> Vindication III, 1932, p. 250.
<< Angels are delegated by the Lord to convey his instructions to the members of his organization on earth. Just how this is done is not necessary for us to understand. >> The Watchtower, December 1, 1933, p. 364.
Obviously this 'conveyance of instructions' has nothing to do with reading and interpreting the Bible today, since those Biblical 'instructions' were conveyed some 2000 years ago.
Here are more proofs that JW leaders claim direct, active guidance by God and angels:
<< This question is propounded for the benefit of those faithful ones of the remnant now on earth, and the angel of the Lord brings to them the needed information in answer to their questions. (Rev. 1:1) This is proof that the interpretation of prophecy does not proceed from man, but that the Lord Jesus, the chief one in Jehovah's organization, sends the necessary information to his people by and through his holy angels. >> Preparation, p. 28.
<< Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower... Certainly God guides his covenant people by using the holy angels to convey his message to them. >> The Watchtower, February 1, 1935, p. 41.
<< The remnant are instructed by the angels of the Lord. The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones. >> Preparation, p. 64.
<< Surely the holy angels of the Jehovah God, who are under the command of Christ Jesus and accompany him at his temple as his deputies, are clothed with power to put questions in the minds of those on earth who are devoted to God. It is not necessary for us to know just how this is done, but there can be no doubt about the power of the deputies of the Lord. >> The Watchtower, May 15, 1938, p. 157.
Rutherford believed that the holy spirit was the force that, in the early church, God used to enlighten Christians. He believed that the holy spirit was replaced by angels in 1918 and these took over controlling the minds of the remnant:
<< The Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of "the servant", acting by and through his holy angels, has directed and is directing that work. It was the holy spirit that operated upon the minds of men in the early church to take certain action; but now the Lord Jesus himself has returned, is in his temple, and, acting by and through his holy angels, puts into the mind and heart of the remnant class to take positive action and to do a certain work... >> The Watchtower, September 1, 1930, p. 263 P 27.
In view of the above direct statements by "the faithful and discreet slave class" -- which have never been rescinded by later members of that "slave class" -- only a fool can deny that JW leaders do not claim direct guidance by God and angels, and therefore direct inspiration.
: When apostates make the claim that we are false prophets they use the Law found at Deuteronomy.
You keep stupidly repeating that. I've shown several times now that it is not the letter of the Law, but the basic principles in the Law that are universally applicable, that prove that JW leaders are false prophets. Once again:
Anyone who claims to speak in God's name is a prophet -- by definition. Anyone who falsely claims to speak in God's name is a false prophet -- by definition. Since God is infallible, anyone who claims to speak in his name and teaches falsehood, or even makes mistakes when speaking for God, is a false prophet.
This has nothing to do with anyone who claims to sometimes speak in God's name. A person might well sometimes utter his own opinion, and at other times claim to speak for God. As long as he distinguishes between when he is uttering his own opinion and when he is speaking for God, there is no problem if he is wrong when he is expressing his own opinion. But if he ever -- even once -- makes a mistake when he claims to speak for God, then he is a false prophet -- by definition. Thus, when the apostles and other early Christians made mistakes, they were not speaking for God -- they were merely uttering their own opinions. At other times they were speaking for God, and when they did, they made no mistakes. You cannot find a single example in the New Testament where any true speaker for God made an error when he was claiming to speak for God.
Now apply this to today's JW leaders. When they're acting on their own and expressing their individual opinions, no one expects them to be infallible. But when they collectively put their stamp of approval on some doctrine or policy, and do it in their claimed position as "Governing Body of the faithful slave class", that is an entirely different kettle of fish. In this collective role they are always claiming to speak for God. Therefore, when they make mistakes in their self-appointed collective role, they are condemning themselves as false prophets.
: That applied to those who claimed to recieve messages directly from the spirit realm.
No it did not. Let's read the passage again:
<< "'However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. >>
Nothing in the passage says anything about receiving messages from anyone. It speaks exclusively of those who claim to speak in the name of God or other gods. This is obvious because some false prophets would not even make the claim to themselves that they received any supernatural messages -- they might just be using their claim for self-aggrandizement.
: The Watchtower doesn't make that claim
Yes it does. Note once again just one statement from above:
<< The Lord Jesus Christ, ... acting by and through his holy angels, puts into the mind and heart of the remnant class to take positive action and to do a certain work. >>
: and none of the quotes you dug up makes that claim.
The fool has spoken.
: The only thing you can do is doctor up your phony claim by taking statements out of context that discuss in what sense the WT is a prophet,
Oh really. You're a flaming liar, Bobby. You can't even begin to show how any of the above statements are taken out of context. They're absolutely clear: JW leaders claim that angels directly insert knowledge and motivations into their minds and hearts. That is a claim of inspiration, no matter what you claim.
: and then transferring that to the sort of prophet Deuteronomy is talking about. That's why I am justified to point out your con game.
I think that even the thickest of JW defenders can see who is playing a con game here.
:: Thus we have all the proof we need to state that JW leaders are false prophets: they claim to be inspired, they claim to speak in God's name, and they utter false teachings and predictions in God's name.
Here we find You Know's standard strawman technique at work:
: As regards our connection with angels, the angels who direct God's people can do so without imparting prophecy, as they did to the Hebrew prophets.
Strawman. A prophet is not only someone who makes prophetic predictions, but is someone who claims to teach truth in God's name. That is exactly what the above quotations prove that JW leaders claim about themselves.
: If that's what you believe the Watchtower is saying, then, where are the prophecies that they recieved from on high?
One example: Rutherford claimed that his prediction of Armageddon in 1925 was not a product of his own thinking or his own interpretation of the Bible, but that he received the information from angels.
: What does the Society teach that is not supported by Scripture?
Nothing -- in the sense that Flat-Earthism and slavery are "supported by Scripture". Such claims are valueless. The Society teaches quite a bit that cannot be proved by Scripture, and quite a bit that can be disproved by Scripture. Today is no different from previous times in this regard. The proof that the Society has always taught falsehood is seen in the many abandoned teachings that were once taught as "God's truth".
: Personally, I do not believe anything that I cannot absolutely prove using the Bible.
That's pretty funny, coming from someone who subscribes to Young-Earth Creationism and Flood Geology.
AlanF
