adam & eve

by gotcha 126 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  RWC

  Pom we can go around this all day. The ultimate question for you is who is chosen? How do you know? Are you saying that the chosen are the JW's? Are you denying that the Bible says that you are saved by grace through faith?

  What do you base your thought on that Jesus telling people to go make disciples of all nations was only to the early congregations and not us?

  Call to the Gentiles: Romans 1:5 - Through him and for his sake we received grace and apostleship to call people from amonf all the Gentiles to the obediance that comes from faith.

  Romans 1:16 - I am not ashamed of the Gospels because it is the power of God for the salvation of EVERYONE who believes, first for the jew and than for the Gentile.

  He describes to the jewish people that the law and its obidience to it was based on faith - Romans 4:1-4 He describes this to say that it is faith and not works that gave the Jewish people their rightousnes before God to justify that the Gentiles who believe are equally justified.

  See Romans 3:22 - But now a righteoousness from God, apart from the law has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness comes from God comes from faith in Jesus Christ to ALL who believe. For there is no difference for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

  Justification comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Its that simple.

  Joseph- Your attempts here are falling way short. You start on the false premise tht Mark, Luke, Matthew and John wrote fiction about a fictional character and then try to fit your arguments into that premise. The truth is that Jesus was a real person and the people writing about his life wrote about what they witnessed and what they saw. We have been over that before in earlier threads so there is no need to repeat it here.

  But, what evidence do you have that Joseph was not a carpenter? What evidence do you have that Jesus, as Joseph's son would not learn his trade and become a carpenter himself?
• 

  pomegranate

  >>Pom we can go around this all day. The ultimate question for you is who is chosen?<<

  Everyone that GOD wants to be His. It is HIS decision alone. He will have mercy on who He has mercy, he will have compassion on who he has compassion. Will you argue with that? It's HIS call.

  >>How do you know?<<

  How do I know who is chosen? I don't know. The chosen in this age have not been revealed. All creation awaits the revealing of these new sons of God.

  Rom 8:19
  19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

  >>Are you saying that the chosen are the JW's?<<

  I'm saying God can pick a prostitute if he wants. There is no man better than the other. Heck, he picked the scum bag Saul (who Later became Paul) There was none worse than he. Yet God chose him. Will you argue with that choice?

  >>Are you denying that the Bible says that you are saved by grace through faith?<<

  Are you denying that the faith you have, if you have it, is not from you?

  >>What do you base your thought on that Jesus telling people to go make disciples of all nations was only to the early congregations and not us?<<

  Becasue he was speaking to them not to me. They were asked to do it, and they did it. What HE commanded got done through them, by way of God's power in the early days and through the Bible in the last days. What makes you think it is a COMMAND given to you?

  >>Call to the Gentiles: Romans 1:5 - Through him and for his sake we received grace and apostleship to call people from amonf all the Gentiles to the obediance that comes from faith.<<

  So, seems to me they are looking for people that ALREADY have faith? So where does that faith come from??

  >>Romans 1:16 - I am not ashamed of the Gospels because it is the power of God for the salvation of EVERYONE who believes, first for the jew and than for the Gentile.<<

  Everyone who believes what? That man can be salvaged if THEY choose? No, Salvation will come to everyone who believes God saves by his choice, NOT man is saved by man's choice. If yoou beleive man can save himself by HIS choice, then man saves HIMSELF. Sorry, God saves the corrupted man, the corrupted man can't save the corrupted man even by choice. Becasue it is not man's choice. It is God's alone.

  If you beleive man is saved BY ANY WORKS AT ALL, you do not believe in the Gospel of saved by grace, not by works. Which is all the Bible is about.

  >>He describes to the jewish people that the law and its obidience to it was based on faith - Romans 4:1-4 He describes this to say that it is faith and not works that gave the Jewish people their rightousnes before God to justify that the Gentiles who believe are equally justified.<<

  You have never answered my question. Where does faith come from?

  >>See Romans 3:22 - But now a righteoousness from God, apart from the law has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness comes from God comes from faith in Jesus Christ to ALL who believe. For there is no difference for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.<<

  Again I ask, if it is ALL basede on FAITH, where is the source of true faith. Is it from inside YOU. Do YOU create the faith of God within you?

  >>Justification comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Its that simple.<<

  Then, where does faith come from?

  >>>Joseph- Your attempts here are falling way short. You start on the false premise tht Mark, Luke, Matthew and John wrote fiction about a fictional character and then try to fit your arguments into that premise. The truth is that Jesus was a real person and the people writing about his life wrote about what they witnessed and what they saw. We have been over that before in earlier threads so there is no need to repeat it here.

  But, what evidence do you have that Joseph was not a carpenter? What evidence do you have that Jesus, as Joseph's son would not learn his trade and become a carpenter himself?<<

  Man tough one huh? Looks like they were both carpenters. Typical Jewish thing you know for a son to learn the trade of his father. What else was a son to do? Become the Messiah? :-) In this case, YES!

  Doh!
• 

  RWC

  Where does faith come from? Once you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior you are given the holy spirit to increase and strengthen your faith. Galations 3: 5 - "Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law or because you believe what you have heard? 3:24 We are justified by our faith.

  Are you saying that God will decide who will have faith and who won't? So that a person who hears the Gospel, God will decide if that person will believe it or not? That is a narrow view of election and denies that Jesus died on the cross for all.

  Free will started in Genisis when God gave the direction to Adam to eat from all trees but one. He was free to chose to follow God's direction or not. He chose not to. That is the same as believing or not believing in Christ. We are free to believe or not. If we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and increase our faith. But the intital choice is ours to make.

  Look at Jesus' words to the blind and mute in Matthew 9:28 - He asks them "Do you believe that I am able to do this? They respond yes they believe. He says " According to your faith will it be done to you"

  The same is true for our salvation. It starts with our belief in Christ as our savior. Once that door is opened God takes over from there.

  Does God have to wait for our belief? Of course not. He is all powerful. But he has given us the choice to believe or not. That is what we do. Than through our faith we our saved.

  Your definition of election has been descibed as follows: The traditional definition avers that election is God's act of choosing some persons for salvation and other persons for damnation. Do you agree?

  My belief is as follows: God's grace has made salvation possible and in establishing a covenant relationship with all who believe. It centers on Christ's provisions of salvation rather than human destiny. I take it you would not agree.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>Are you saying that God will decide who will have faith and who won't?<<

  No. I am not saying that, the Bible PLAINLY says that. FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD. It is NOT from you, it is NOT in you UNLESS GOD puts it there Himself. Faith is a GIFT FROM GOD:

  Eph 2:7-8
  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-

  Do you comprehend what was just said above? THROUGH FAITH-and this is NOT from yourselves, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD. Faith is a GIFT from God, it is not FROM INSIDE YOU. You are born 100% BAD. A Bad tree cannot produce good fruit. YOU cannot produce ANYTHING good on your own. God puts the good in you (like grafting), because you (and I) are bound to bad.

  Faith is even APPORTIONED and measured out according to the way God sees fit to whoever he decides:

  Rom 12:3
  Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

  "In accordance with the measure of faith GOD HAS GIVEN YOU." This says God gives out faith. That certainly goes along with MY understanding that it is God who chooses the man. God chooses to give faith to the men He wants. Go re-read Romans 9 now. God is the master. We are the slaves. The master chooses the slave, right?

  More proof? How about fruitage of the spirit? If faith was from man, faith would be fruitage of the man, right? Faith IS NOT the fruitage of man, it is the fruitage of God:

  Gal 5:22
  22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

  Faith comes from God as a GIFT, measures out, as a fruitage of HIMSELF placed inside THOSE HE CHOOSES so that they may BELIEVE that he exists and can save them by way of his sacrificed Son. Faith first, believing second. Faith is from God and NO OTHER SOURCE.

  >>So that a person who hears the Gospel, God will decide if that person will believe it or not? That is a narrow view of election and denies that Jesus died on the cross for all.<<

  You better come up with a better counter than that. The scriptures I have shown undermine you totally and they ARE NOT out of context.

  >>Free will started in Genisis when God gave the direction to Adam to eat from all trees but one.<<

  Did God tell Adam to CHOOSE? Or did God COMMAND Adam NOT to do something?

  Gen 2:16-17
  16 And the LORD God COMMANDED the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

  A COMMAND is not a choice! A COMMAND IS A LAW!

  If God wanted Adam to CHOOSE, he would have said Adam, pick between the tree of LIFE or this tree that gives death. Did God give Adam the CHOICE to eat from EITHER TREE? NO HE DID NOT! Go reread your Bible story. The tree of LIFE was not a choice for Adam. Adam had NO CHOICE. HE WAS GIVEN A COMMAND not to eat NOT A CHOICE between life and death.

  >>He was free to chose to follow God's direction or not.<<

  He was NOT free to choose. HE DIED. DEATH is not freedom. Death is prison. Forever. Death is a penalty for breaking God's COMMAND of which God did NOT give him that freedom, SATAN gave Adam that freedom. The option to defy God is NOT GOD'S CHOICE. It was Satan's.

  >>He chose not to.<<

  He broke the LAW.

  >>That is the same as believing or not believing in Christ.<<

  It is NOT.

  >>We are free to believe or not.<<

  LAW breakers are free to break laws. If you want the freedom to break God's Law, God will use His Law against you.

  >> If we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and increase our faith. But the intital choice is ours to make.<<

  God gives out the faith friend. Now what?

  >>Look at Jesus' words to the blind and mute in Matthew 9:28 - He asks them "Do you believe that I am able to do this? They respond yes they believe. He says " According to your faith will it be done to you"<<

  The faith that it could happen came from God. This text does not defy that truth. Faith is from God.

  >>The same is true for our salvation. It starts with our belief in Christ as our savior.<<

  No. It starts with faith being given from God. Then one can believe after God gives the faith. Believing can't happen unless one has faith first.

  >> Once that door is opened God takes over from there.<<

  God opens the door, not man.

  >>Does God have to wait for our belief?<<

  Your belief isn't going to happen unless He gives you faith.

  >>Of course not. He is all powerful. But he has given us the choice to believe or not. That is what we do. Than through our faith we our saved.<<

  Better brush up on where faith comes from. Because faith is from God and ONLY God as the texts I showed you clearly support. That means every believer is chosen and predestined by God the Great Shepherd, to live with Him because that's the way He wants it.

  >>Your definition of election has been descibed as follows: The traditional definition avers that election is God's act of choosing some persons for salvation and other persons for damnation. Do you agree?<<

  God says, I will have mercy on whom I shall have mercy, and I shall harned whom I shall harden."

  In a nutshell? I do what I want. Love me or die. PS. I'll choose the ones that I want to love me. They will obey my voice. They will live with me forever. Slave for LOVE, or slave for DEATH. To me, there is no CHOICE. That's the WAY I want it. I want God to choose for me. And He will. Forever. That will repel most people, because that means they aren't free to choose. Guess what??? Being God's slave is WAY better than being a slave to Satan.

  I will be God's slave ANYDAY 24/7/365 into eternity.

  >>My belief is as follows: God's grace has made salvation possible and in establishing a covenant relationship with all who believe. It centers on Christ's provisions of salvation rather than human destiny. I take it you would not agree.<<

  Your belief isn't founded on the source of true faith now is it.
• 

  RWC

  Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing the message and the message is heard through the Word of Christ

  Philippians 3:9 - Righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ

  If faith comes from God, would you agree that it could never be destroyed? If so explain 2 Timothy 18. The words of some destroy the faith of others.

  See Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. It doesn't say that he rewards those to whom he has given faith.

  Eph 2:7-8 - The grace came from God, not the faith

  Rom 12: 3 is an introduction of spiritual gifts and work people are called to do by God. They are told not to look down on others work because the church is one body. Spirtual gifts are given by God. we have no disagreement about that.

  If you don't know you are chosen, how do you know you are God's slave? Maybe you are deluding yourself. You have no assurance of salvation at all, because if God didn't pick you, all your faith is in vain. or are you saying that everyone who has faith has already been picked. What about those who had faith at one point but now don't? Did God give that faith and then take it away?
• 

  pomegranate

  >>If faith comes from God,<<

  IF?? The Bible says plainly that faith indeed DOES come from God as a gift and you say IF?? Are you mad?

  >>would you agree that it could never be destroyed?<<

  The faith from God CANNOT be destroyed. It may be UPSET or shaken, but NOT destroyed. First, your Bible has rendered INCORRECTLY 2 Tim 2:18 - it should be rendered this way:

  2 Tim 2:18
  and they upset the faith of some
  NASU

  2 Tim 2:18
  and thus they upset the faith of some.
  NAS

  2 Tim 2:18-19
  They are upsetting the faith of some.
  RSV

  The above renderings are correct to the Greek. "Destroy" is incorrect. There is a Greek word for "destroy" and it is katakluo. That is NOT the Greek word used here. The Greek word used here is anatrepo, which is a compound word. Ana - means up, trepo - means turn or spin. So the real definition is upturn, upspin, upset. And, if you examine the context in verse 19, what does Paul say about the faith of these who have been upset by false teachers??

  19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation [FAITH, even though upset] stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

  The Lord knows who are his. Because He gave them the faith that is the solid foundation from God.

  >>See Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. It doesn't say that he rewards those to whom he has given faith.

  What? Can you read?? "And without faith it is impossible to please God,..." If God didn't give a man the faith, then the man CANNOT please God. Belief is teh extension of faith and faith is from God. Faith is first from God (Action), belief is next from man (reaction). Faith first, belief is second, just like your text has outlined.

  >>Eph 2:7-8 - The grace came from God, not the faith

  Do you really think there would be a question as to where GRACE comes from? Have you ever heard ANYONE say I am saved by the Grace of MYSELF?? NO. The expression is saved by the Grace of God. Grace is NOT what is in question, it is the source of faith.

  Also, you show yourself to be uneducated in SIMPLE sentence GRAMMAR. Did you flunk English? Tell you what, go get yourself a good elementary book on English GRAMMAR, brush up on it a bit, then get back to me and see if you can make your same claim with a straight face. OK?

  Well, let me give you clue:

  Eph 2:7-10
  8 (For it is by grace you have been saved,) {through faith-and this not from yourselves}, [it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.]

  Grace, saved
  faith, not your own
  gift, no one can boast

  I'd still get a grammar book if I were you.

  >>Rom 12: 3 is an introduction of spiritual gifts and work people are called to do by God. They are told not to look down on others work because the church is one body. Spirtual gifts are given by God. we have no disagreement about that.<<

  Faith is a spirtual gift. It is a gift from God. It can be upset. It cannot be destroyed. God's solid foundation [FAITH, even though upset] stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

  >>If you don't know you are chosen, how do you know you are God's slave?<<

  I didn't say I wasn't chosen. And I haven't said I am. Even if I knew it, I wouldn't say either way.

  You asked me how do I know who the chosen are. If I was chosen, outside of myself, I wouldn't know who they are.

  >>Maybe you are deluding yourself.<<

  Nice try. Maybe your not chosen.

  >>You have no assurance of salvation at all, because if God didn't pick you, all your faith is in vain.<<

  The chosen have all the assurance in the world. It's people like you that deny faith being from God that have built their house on the sand. I say FAITH is from God as much as MY LIFE is from God.

  >>or are you saying that everyone who has faith has already been picked.<<

  I never said anything of the sort. The end will come when the full number has been fulfilled. That number obviously isn't filled yet.

  >>What about those who had faith at one point but now don't?<

  I can't judge another man's faith. God judges what is true faith and not.

  >>Did God give that faith and then take it away?<<

  Show me.
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  pomegranate,

  Are you saying regeneration(being made alive-born again) comes before faith and repentance. Eph. 2:1-5?

  Faith is a gift and man can't choose God Romans 3:10-11 unless enabled right? "No one comes to the son uless it is granted to him by the father"

  Are you talking about "effectual calling" as the WCF discribes it.
  Are you a CALVINIST?
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  RCW wrote:
  

  If you don't know you are chosen, how do you know you are God's slave? Maybe you are deluding yourself. You have no assurance of salvation at all, because if God didn't pick you, all your faith is in vain. or are you saying that everyone who has faith has already been picked. What about those who had faith at one point but now don't? Did God give that faith and then take it away?

  
  Because the scripures alone give us assurances in the promises of Christ. Based on the active obediance of Christ alone. Those who walk away or apostacy from the faith where never converted by God in the first place. your asking god questions that can be answered by a good study on the nature of conversion. and who does the saving God or man. 1John 5:1-5 gives us the assurance that we are favor with God and have eternal life. We do know that God chooses undeserving sinners, who they are that is locked up un the seecret things of God not to be revieled but we personally can know our own assurense of election and salvation. That is why we proclaiom the message of Christ because it is though the means of the preached word that men are saves James 1:18 Romans 10:17
• 

  RWC

  Pom.,

  We can engage in this debate without insults. Trust me, I do not need a grammer lesson. Your breakdown of Eph. 2:8 is simply wrong. It is taken out of context and not a proper examination of the sentence. The context makes it clear that it is the grace of God that is the gift that saves through faith and not works.

  The NIV uses the word destroy. But even if the word is upset the meaning is the same. If faith before belief comes from God how can man upset it? It would be so firm that no man could undo it, unless you say that God gives out some weak faith and some strong faith.

  I John 4:15 - If ANYONE acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

  We just have a fundamental difference of opinion. Your view is a very Calvinistic view of election that presupposes predestination.

  Romans 3:22 - This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christto ALL who believe.

  If all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God, than even those with the gift of faith before they believe in Christ are sinners. When does this change? When are they born again? What would be the need to be born again if the faith was always with them such that the Bible's promise of salvation applys to these people even if they are never born again? If you think that being born again is not necessary for salvation then you deny the words of Jesus.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>>pomegranate,

  Are you saying regeneration(being made alive-born again) comes before faith and repentance. Eph. 2:1-5?<<

  More like the same time.

  >>Faith is a gift and man can't choose God Romans 3:10-11 unless enabled right? "No one comes to the son uless it is granted to him by the father"<<

  God chooses the man, man CANNOT choose God because man is born in a debased and corrupt vessel.

  >>Are you talking about "effectual calling" as the WCF discribes it.<<

  I have no idea what WCF is.

  >>Are you a CALVINIST? <<

  No, I am Christian. Thank you for the smiley.

  ---------------------
  >>We can engage in this debate without insults. Trust me, I do not need a grammer lesson. Your breakdown of Eph. 2:8 is simply wrong.<<

  Look sport, the insult is DIRECTLY from you. Claiming that FAITHS predicate is going with the subject of GRACE is a BIG FAT LIE. Don't LIE to me if you want to debate me. You do NOT know your GRAMMAR if yoou make such a claim. Grammar ALWAYS streams SUBJECT first then PREDICATE directly following. Which are RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER ALWAYS.

  Subject: Grace...... Predicate: you are saved
  Subject: Faith...... Predicate: not from yourselves
  Subject: Not Works.. Predicate: no one can boast.

  >>It is taken out of context and not a proper examination of the sentence.<<

  Well GRAMMAR child, show us how to properly examine this sentence by the CONSISTENT rules of SUBJECT and PREDICATE won't you??

  >>The context makes it clear that it is the grace of God that is the gift that saves through faith and not works.<<

  We do not need context when you are lying about the GRAMMAR. The GRAMMAR tells the TRUTH that faiths predicate is NOT FROM YOURSELVES. Context of the paragraph is NOT needed in this regard. Just you and a grammar lesson.

  >>The NIV uses the word destroy. But even if the word is upset the meaning is the same.<<

  Are you for real? Destroy and upset ARE NOT the same. If I upset you you can say with a straight face that I destroyed you? You are really beginning to show yourself as NOT ignorant, which education can fix, BUT STUPID. Why are you making such stupid claims such as upset and destroy mean the same thing?

  >>If faith before belief comes from God how can man upset it?<<

  See below, you answered your own question in my favor.

  >>It would be so firm that no man could undo it, unless you say that God gives out some weak faith and some strong faith.<<

  I don't say it, the Bible does, so your "unless" is satisfied:

  Christ speaking of Peter:

  Matt 14:31
  31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

  Peter only had been given a little faith at this point. Why did Peter doubt? Because he was ONLY given a little faith by God.

  Matt 15:28
  28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith!

  This woman was given great faith from God through Jesus.

  Luke 17:6
  6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed,

  Jesus described some having small faith, even that is powerful though.

  Matt 13:58
  because of their lack of faith.

  Even NONE given out.

  Small faith, great faith, little faith, lack of faith. There are varying amounts of faith, from NONE to Great given by God. It is MEASURED out according to a previous text I have shown you. A little here. A lot there. All in accord to FIGHTING EVIL where Satan is hitting his chosen hardest. And it can be increased according to God's will THROUGH his Son. See here:

  Luke 17:5
  5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

  The Apostles surely wouldn't make such a claim to Christ if it was not HE that could fulfill their request right? In order for Christ to increase their faith like they asked, WHERE WOULD THE FAITH INCREASE COME FROM? Obviously Christ himself since that's who they asked to increase their faith. Is this true? Does faith come through Jesus to all he chooses??

  Acts 3:16
  It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

  The faith comes through Jesus from the Father to all HE chooses.

  >>I John 4:15 - If ANYONE acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God.<<

  Many will say Lord lord...they acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God. So ANYONE is NOT a blanket all encompassing anyone.

  It would be ANYONE with the TRUE FAITH that only Christ can give who acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God...Everyone else is a Lord Lorder, those who were not chosen

  The true faith comes from the Father through Christ, and the source of faith comes from NOWHERE else.

  >>We just have a fundamental difference of opinion. Your view is a very Calvinistic view of election that presupposes predestination.<<

  I believe it is more like what is the truth and what is not.

  My view is very Biblical and well supported in the Bible. Just as it is written.

  >>Romans 3:22 - This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christto ALL who believe.<<

  Righteousness comes after faith. It is credited to those who have been given faith. Faith is the first given, righteousness is then credited.

  >>If all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God, than even those with the gift of faith before they believe in Christ are sinners. When does this change?<<

  Are you familiar with CREDIT? That's when that changes. Righteousness is given on CREDIT. Faith, belief, credit righteousness.

  Gen 15:6
  6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

  Ps 106:31
  31 This was credited to him as righteousness
  for endless generations to come.

  Ezek 18:20
  The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

  Rom 4:5
  5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

  Read the following VERY CAREFULLY:

  Rom 4:20-25
  20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,

  God gave faith to Abraham. When God gave Abraham faith, the faith beacme Abraham's.

  21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.

  Who was persuading Abraham? Not partially, BUT FULLY persuaded? GOD.

  22 This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

  Faith is given from the Father, through the Son to the ones He has chosen. That choosing was done before the heavens and the earth.

  >>When are they born again?<<

  When God chooses the time for another "Son" to be born. The re-birth is God's choice not man's. Just as you had NO say in your physical life and birth, you have NO say in your eternal life and birth. It is God's choice to pick who HE descides.

  >>What would be the need to be born again if the faith was always with them such that the Bible's promise of salvation applys to these people even if they are never born again?<<

  The faith WASN'T always with them. When that true faith is given out (you know, like a seed)...then the rebirth happens.

  >>If you think that being born again is not necessary for salvation then you deny the words of Jesus.<<

  You put words in my mouth. Being born again happens when the faith is planted.

  Look Father!!!...we have a new ADOPTED son through the rebirth.

  They will protect that new child to the DEATH. Unfortunately for those that may UPSET the new son, it will mean death for the upsetters not the Parents.