by gotcha 126 Replies latest watchtower bible
>>OMG, pom, is that you???? How could I have missed you here? I looked for you elsewhere, but thought you'd disappeared. I'm so glad to see you.<<
Yep...it's me!! What happened to your email?? I kept getting fatal errors when I sent stuff, heck I think back well before Christmas...I didn't know what the heck happened to ya...
So, what's been going on?!?!?!?
>>Pomegranate,
It is obvious that you are very serious about your belief in Adam and Eve.<<
yep.
>>I do not get involved with threads such as these because I know the are a waste of time and go nowhere.<<
they go nowhere for you. they go everywhere for me.
>>I am not the fool that I seem to be or as shallow as my posts may appear. I have studied volumes of religious and philosophical theory and I am quite secure with my thoughts on the whole issue.<<
So have I, and so am I.
>>Since I see that you are serious and that I was only playing I apologize if I had offended you in any way.<<
nada...you were quite respectful. funny actually. I don't take offense at this stuff...I just do it.
>>Even though I was board and wanted to play, I do not want to take this issue any farther than it has been taken. I don't think you would like what I had to say and the volumes of research that I would post in an attempt to make the story of Adam and Eve look more ridicules than It actually is.<<
Wow. Volumes upon volumes huh? So you think that's the key? Well, if that's your solstice, great.
>>It is your belief and your love for God in regard to your interpretation of the bible and it is not necessary for me to argue the point with you.<<
Well, I wasn't arguing. I was telling you I believe in reply to your questions mixed in with you faux sarcasm.
>>If you would like me to take the time to post similar stories about biblical myth that have been copied directly from stories made up five hundred years before the story of Christ that are identical and taken from both Hindu and Buddhist myths I will do that.<<
By what token do you know that anything from that far back is factual? Which really came first? Who story is true? You don't really know, the books you read saying so don't really know and neither do the men who wrote them. It's ALL man made specualtion becasue NONE of them were eye witnesses now were they? Men have a hard enough time writing the evening news accurately and you put your trust in Bozo's telling you the play by play from milleniums ago? Kewl!!!
>>If you know anything about the stores of both Krishna and Buddha you might have an idea of the amazing similarities and how the Jewish and Christian faiths adopted these stories on behalf of their own proclaimed saviors.<<
So friend, prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt who copied who. You can't and you know it. Your belief in those volumes you read are just as much an act of faith as mine being put in the Bible. You just put your trust in men. I in God.
>>Because of the fact, my taking the time to post such things would probably mean nothing to you and you will not have an open mind in reading them so I will not take the time to do it.<<
I studied Buddism and Hinduism. I was a practicing yogi freak. I've taken acid to get me even closer. I don't need the volumes. I know the volumes. I've seen the volumes. I lived the volumes.
>>If you have ever read the story of Buddha then you might want to check out the link below.<<
Been there, done that. I was on a course of persuing the Kundalini power...eye on the forehead and all. I lived it.
>>I am not a Buddhist nor a Hindu.<<
Nor I any more. I have been to both extremes. Cultish Christian and Pagan Eastern. Studied profusely mainstream Christian. I side with none.
>>I am very non religious.<<
Nor I. I am spiritual. I hate religion.
>>You will also find many adopted theories and myths that the Christians also borrowed from the Hindu and Buddhist religions by reading directly from their source in either the Vedas or the Upanishads. I also recommend Ernest Renan's "Life of Jesus" and S. Radhakrishnan 's : Religion and Culture.<<
It's all man made BS. I'll use those books as fire fuel. I have done my duty and looked under the rocks. The Bible stands on it's own. Men need their religious groups and cock-eyed doctrines. They can have them and their educated doctorate wisdom.
>>If you do decide to investigate these issues I must warn you, it might shake your faith up a little.<<
Ahh. Now that you know where I've been, suppose you teach me something I don't know??
>>Most Christians that said they have read these things have not, but only have read a Christian's interoperation of them.<<
I lived it.
>>It's like accepting the JW's word for what other religions teach. Iv yet to have one Christian that I recommended these books to actually read them. They tend to want to stay in their nice little cocoon and believe in talking snakes and bad fruit stories.<<
Why read the books when I lived the life? It's a lying fabrication just like "organized" Christianity, JW's and the other piles of dung men hold close to their bossoms.
>>Again, sorry I did not take you seriously. If you choose to find out for yourself about what I have stated above and not just take the word of Christian leaders then have fun reading. If not, then I understand, I did the same thing when I was a JW, now I know better.<<
I don't believe you do. I am not a JW. And my understanding of the Bible is not mainstream.
toodles.
a Christian writes,
I have seen you attack the Bible here several times before. But this was the worst aledged Bible contradiction I have ever seen you post. Obviously the "family" members who thought Jesus was "out of his mind" in Mark 3:21 did not include Jesus' mother, because Mark 3:31 clearly indicates that Jesus' mother "arrived" after they had said this.
Are you seriously arguing that the "family" Mark told us was headed to the house to "take charge" of Jesus because he was "out of his mind" is not the members of his family--"mother and brothers"--who later arrived at that house?
If so, then perhaps a second reading of the relevant passage will change your mind. Here it is again:
14 He appointed twelve--designating them apostles--that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach ...15 and to have authority to drive out demons...20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat....[H]is family...went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind." ...31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. (Mark 3:14-31)This should be perfectly clear: the people who said he was crazy were the same people (Jesus' family) who went to the house, and the same people (mother and brothers) who arrived at the house.
Thus, his mother thought he was "out of his mind" and needed to be taken charge of, according to Mark. Mary, if Mark is to be believed, could not possibly have believed that her son was the son of God, as Luke tells us. This means the Bible is in error.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
JosephAlward
quote:
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He appointed twelve--designating them apostles--that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach and to have authority to drive out demons....When his family [including Jesus’ mother: see Mark 3:31] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind." (Mark 3:14-21)
They,especially his mother,obviously feared for his life. I know I would have.
aChristian
"Easton's Bible Dictionary"I can't imagine a crowd of people listening to someone speaking in parables and not understanding or wanting to know the meanings. Try telling jokes without the punch lines for awhile and see how quickly people disappear.Instruction by parables has been in use from the earliest times. A large portion of our Lord's public teaching consisted of parables. He himself explains his reasons for this in his answer to the inquiry of the disciples, "Why speakest thou to them in parables?" (Mat 13:13-15; Mark 4:11, 12; Luke 8:9, 10). He followed in so doing the rule of the divine procedures, as recorded in Mat 13:13.
The parables uttered by our Lord are all recorded in the synoptical (i.e., the first three) Gospels. The fourth Gospel contains no parable properly so called, although the illustration of the good shepherd (John 10:1-16) has all the essential features of a parable. (See CHRIST.)
The synoptic gospels constantly belittle those that don't understand the parables while giving the reader the inside knowledge. IMO the parables of Jesus do not record the actual events, but are more of a style of writing for the purpose of instruction.
plmkrzy
John
3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."4 And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come."
5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."
John 2:4-5 (RSV)
Mary publicly encourage Jesus to perform miracles. She couldn't have been to fearful for her life.
Joseph,
The point I meant to make was that, since verse 31 simply tells us of Mary's arrival, and says nothing of her feeling the same as Jesus' family members referred to in verse 21, you can not say for sure that Mary was part of the group of family members spoken of in verse 21 who thought Jesus was crazy. Verse 21 does not say Jesus' "entire family" felt that way. Sure, Mary came with those who thought he had lost his mind. But Jesus' family members who felt that way may have decided to make the trip in order to "talk some sense into Jesus" before asking Mary to accompany them. Maybe they assumed that Mary would support their efforts or hoped to talk her into doing so on the way. Or maybe after hearing of their plans Mary insisted that she accompany them to offer Jesus some support. But whatever the case was, we know from several other passages of scripture that Mary was a believer in her son's claims about himself.
Pseudo,
I did not mean that Jesus told all of his parables in a way that would confound all who listened to him. I meant to convey the thought that some of Jesus' parables were told in such a way. The ones which he told to groups of people which largely were comprised of his opposers would have fallen into this category.
The comments below expand upon the argument I presented earlier.
The Mother of Jesus Thought He Was Deluded
Mark told us in Mark 3:21 that the “family” thought Jesus was nuts, then later identifies the family members in Mark 3:31 as the “mother and brothers.” It doesn’t get much clearer than that. If Mark wanted us to understand that Mary knew Jesus was God, he certainly never would have used words that strongly indicate that Mary thought Jesus was “out of his mind.”
Abandon Family to Serve God
One of the more important themes of Mark’s gospel is the need to abandon family to serve the Lord. This teaching is articulated in Luke 14:26, where the writer has Jesus tell his followers,
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)The first example of abandonment of family is found in Mark 1:19, where at Jesus’ invitation, John and James suddenly leave their father Zebedee to become his disciples. The next occurs when Jesus family arrives at the house in Mark 3:31-35 to take charge of him; rather than going outside to greet them, or inviting them inside, Jesus instead explains that his real family are his followers inside the house with him, the ones who do God’s will, not his unbelieving mother and brothers outside. With this act, Mark has Jesus practicing what Luke said Jesus preached: abandonment of family in order to serve God. Now we can better understand why Mark had Jesus’ mother and brothers reject Jesus' divinity earlier in Mark 3:21: It made it easier for the readers to accept Jesus’ rejection of his family waiting for him outside the house.
Rejection of Jesus by Those Who Knew Him Best
Rejection of Jesus by those who knew him best is another important theme in Mark’s gospel. It occurs first with his mother and brothers, who declared him “out of his mind,” and again three chapters later, when Jesus is rejected by the folks from his hometown. There, the townspeople mock him as a simple “carpenter” who pretends he can work miracles. (Mark 6:1-4) It occurs once again, of course, when one of Jesus’ disciples--someone who obviously doesn’t believe he’s the son of God--betrays him.
We thus see that the picture painted by Mark is quite clear: Those closest to Jesus disbelieve him, and that includes his mother. However, since Luke tells us that God's angel told Mary the Holy Spirit would cause her to have a child who would be the son of God, it's impossible to understand how the Mary in Mark's gospel could disbelieve the claims of Jesus' miracle-working. Thus, one or the other of the two gospel writers--or both--are wrong.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
006 you hit the nail on the head in your first post.If people want to belive in these fables they are welcome to do so.But for ME I cant take a book that reads like mother goose very seriously.As Bill Mare said "the bible reads like a mad lib, god made eve from a [noun] rib."To me its just a book that barrowed fabels from other cultures.
