adam & eve

by gotcha 126 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  clash_city_rockers

  RWC, clueless on biblical exigesis writes:
  

  Romans 3:11 -18 is Paul's indictment to the Jewish people that the law will not save them. Taken out of context it doesn't say what you are implying.

  Response: NO! you have know clue as to the outline of Romans
  I. Intro 1:1-17
  II. The Wrath of God revieled to ungodly men 1:18-32
  III. Indictment of the Jew Chapter 2
  IV. Idictment of all unrightious men jew and gentile 3:1-20
  V. The rightiousness of God (the gospel explained)3:21-31
  VI. The gospel Defended Chapter 4

  Not one good comentater on the book of Romans will agree with you go check out these comentaries.
  1. Charles Hodge on Romans
  2. John Murray's commentary on Romans
  3. William Hendrickson on Romans
  4. C.E.B. Cranfield's Technical commentary on Romans
  5. Leon Morris Comentary on Romans
  6. F.F. Bruce Tyndale N.T. Commentary on Romans

  RWC(who disagrees with the biblical doctrine of total depravity) writes:
  

  Man has free will do decide to believe or not:

  Response: First off the passages you quoted Matt 23:37 and Acts 7:51 where in response to the hard hearts of unregenrate man who outside the grace of God(which semi-pelagians/arminians) like you deny!

  Look at this passage John 3:3
  

  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. .

  Notice that the "unless a man be born again" is in INDICTIVEwhat God does and not and IMPARITIVE what god commands us to do. Being born again is indicitive because it is GOD who does the action to us he makes us born again. We do not make areselves born again by our actions even Nicodemus realised that this couldn't be an imparitive as he reasons by questioning (which is an Aristitillain method) "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus goes on to answer in verse 5 and 6.

  Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

  What do you do whith 2 Cor 4:3-4
  "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

  And you still have know answer to Eph 2:4,5!!!!!!!!

  Sure man has free will but that free will only has the ability to chose sin and never the things of God the only way that free will can choose is if God has mercy and opens the eyes of the lost and regenerates them out in Covenantal language:
  

  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:19

  notice it is God NOT man who changes hearts.

  RWC writes:
  

  To answer your question Gotcha, I am Roman Catholic.

  
  Response: From the frying pan JW's to the Fryer RCC. Your not the guy me and my friend encountered at Don Nelsons House a couple of years ago? anyway
  here is a good apologetics ministry that tackels the papists like Scott Hahn as well as JW's and other HELL BOUND people and idiologies.
  http://aomin.org/apologetics.html

  BTW: did you know Roman Catholic Scripture scholar Joeseph Fitzmire agrees with Protistants with the issue of FAITH ALONE
  Yes his commentary on Romans, which by the way has official impromator and niel obstrat teaches faith alone(imputed Rightiousness) in Verse 4:5.

  Pom, e-mail me I would like to talk
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  RWC,

  one more thing as a Papist you are not allawed to read the bible on your own just like the JW's I guess you are going all your life under the bondage of denying sola scriptura.

  JW's dont believe in sola scriptura and deny it's sufficiancy as well as papists.

  Rem, muddled with man made insight thus opening himself up to another public embarracement scribbles:(snip)
  

  And yet you are a Christian? Sorry to burst your bubble, but Christianity is a man-made religion just like the rest of them.

  
  Response: Please, you are living off of borrowed capitol from the Christian world view. If you want to go around again thats fine with me I just start droppind reductio's on your assertions and giving transedental arguments which are Adam-Bombs on your athiest world view.

  Look we smoked the Pope of athiesm Gordon Stine (who can, by the looks of it can easly give a better defence for athiesm than you) if you have real audio give it a wrirl. Greg Bahnsen vs. Gordon Stine.
  Yes, Greg Bahnsen kicked the skubalon out of the athiests in that debate.

  http://www.straitgate.com/gbgs.ram

  tootles,
  jr
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  RWC, I just forgot YOU are out of step with your own Rominist Doctrine. You are born again by the act of baptism according to Rome this is a work done unto and not chosen by the infint who is baptised.

  But we have a bigger problem You see Grace as a substance (like coffee it keeps you going through out the day)

  And the bible describes Grace not as a substance but as FAVOR or as the reformers put it "the favor of GOD on the account of Christ" (favor Dei Proctor Christum)

  From Geneva with Love
  hugs and snuggles,
  jr
• 

  RWC

  Clash City ,

  First, I was never a JW. I was raised a protestant and became a Roman Catholic as an adult on my own. Your limited understanding of the Roman Catholic doctrine has been shown in your post. If you want to debate that I would be happy.

  Second, you have not responded at all to the passages I quoted which show that the doctrine of total depravity and irresitable grace are not biblical.

  2Cor 4:3-4 - "The God of this age" is Satan, not God who has veiled the gospel

  I do not agree with your interpretaion of Matt. and Acts that i quoted. In Acts Stephen was giving his sermon to the High Priests and in Matt. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. It does not say that this applies to all men who have been prevented from believing by God.

  Your thoughts on scripture alone is an incorrect understanding of Roman Catholic doctrine. Roman Catholics add traditions of the apostles which is supported Biblically and these traditions cannot contradict the Bible.

  Your are incorrect that I cannot read the Bible by myself, however, the Roman Catholic does offer an official interpretation in order to preserve the doctrine. Do you think that your interetation is any better just because it is yours? If you and a thousand other people interpret the Bible differently, how do you know you are still wityhin the realm of orthodoxcy? If y ou are saying that your interpretaion is the only correct way, you are behaving no different than those you condem.
• 

  Abaddon

  RWC; You are very patient; arguing with Calvanistic who play games with presuppositionalism is rather akin to hammering a nail into granite with your forehead.

  Painful, and you don't get anywhere.

  This point was refreshing to hear from a person of faith;

  Your are incorrect that I cannot read the Bible by myself, however, the Roman Catholic does offer an official interpretation in order to preserve the doctrine. Do you think that your interetation is any better just because it is yours? If you and a thousand other people interpret the Bible differently, how do you know you are still wityhin the realm of orthodoxcy? If y ou are saying that your interpretaion is the only correct way, you are behaving no different than those you condem

  It touches on discussions I've been having here with a few Christian's of a more fundamentalistic vein.

  As it is impossible to prove the existance of god (any god), all religionists have to validate their beliefs are subjective interpretations of Holy Books, which in themselves are not provable as being of an inspired nature (either the book or the interpretation). Some may claim subjective validation (enlightenment, being born again, gifts of the spirit, etc.), but again, this is not objectively verifiable in a scientific fashion.

  Lacking such closure, a Zorastian's arguement that he is absolutely right is as provable as a Calvanist, or (no offense) a Roman Cathpolic, JW or Muslim, etc., as a similar methodology and psychology is at play in making these claims.

  Any religionist refusing to recognise this lack of closure, and insisting they are right, despite other religionists having claims of equal validity, is showing signs of cultic thinking, as insistance upon being right and exclusivism are clear hallmarks of cults, as distinct from broader faithways that are non-exclusivistic.

  Typically a spectrum is identified, from denomination (most Roman Catholics for example) to sect, to cult, where denominations are diplomatic about other religions, perhaps thinking themselves the better way, but one of many, sects are increasingly condemnatory of other beliefs, and cults are absolutist.

  It's wonderful seeing a religionist realise this.

  Good luck to you.

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
• 

  RWC

  Abaddon,

  Thank you for the nice post. I recall our discussions in the past on the existence of God and enjoyed them. My debate with Pom and clash city is what I believe a debate within the realm of differences in theology that will not determine our salvation. They may not take it as such, but that is the fundamentalist view of religion.

  I believe of course that the Roman Catholic view of the Bible is correct and right for me, but that does not mean that all Baptists, Lutherans, etc... are going to Hell. If so I would not see the rest of my family in eternity.

  Which of course gets me back to your earlier question which was never answered. There is a fifth possibility and that is that there can and will be differences of opinion on how the Bible is interpreted and as long as those differences are within the umberella of orthodoxy, we can have debate without destruction.

  The debate you and I had in the past was one of salvation and I realize you do not agree, but I stand by my belief that salvation comes from belief in Jesus Christ and not the other Gods worshipped around the world.

  Take care and God Bless
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  The Empty Hand of Faith
  
  
  
  

  —Romans 4:4-5, 16

  "That I may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

  —Philippians 3:9

  "Faith is chosen by God to be the receiver of salvation, because it does not pretend to create salvation, nor to help in it, but it is content humbly to receive it. Faith is the tongue that begs pardon, the hand which receives it, and the eye which sees it; but it is not the price which buys it. Faith never makes herself her own plea, she rests all her argument upon the blood of Christ. She becomes a good servant to bring the riches of the Lord Jesus to the soul, because she acknowledges whence she drew them, and owns that grace alone entrusted her with them."

  —Charles Spurgeon, All of Grace

  The single most amazing truth about the Gospel of Jesus Christ is this: it is all of grace. It is the work of God, not of man. It is the story of a powerful Savior who redeems His people, and He does so completely. It is about a sovereign God, a perfect Savior, and an accomplished redemption.

  In the above quoted Scripture we hear the very message of life itself. We first hear about our inability: if we think we can "work" to gain something from God, we do not understand how truly lost we are. The one who works receives only his wages, not righteousness. But to the one who does not come to God with any idea of merit or earning, but instead trusts in the God who justifies the ungodly, that kind of faith is reckoned to him as righteousness. It is a faith that comes with empty hand, claiming nothing for itself, but seeking its all in Christ. This empty-handed faith is the kind of faith that results in a right standing with God.

  Next we hear about God’s ability: since faith comes with empty hand, it finds in the grace of God all that it could ever need or want. God’s grace is powerful, and it brings full salvation to the soul of the person who despairs of anything other than free, unmerited grace. Grace cannot clasp the hand that carries within it ideas of merit, or good works, or any other kind of human addition to grace. "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Romans 11:6). God’s wondrous grace cannot be mixed with human merit. The hand that holds onto its own alleged goodness, or attempts to sneak in a merit here, a good work there, will not find the open hand of God’s grace. Only the empty hand fits into the powerful hand of grace. Only the person who finds in Christ his all-in-all will, in so finding, be made right with God. This is why the Scriptures say it is by faith so that it might be in accordance with grace: in God’s wisdom, he excludes man’s boasting by making salvation all of grace.

  Finally, we see the certainty of salvation: because God saves by His all-powerful and undeserved mercy and grace, the promise of salvation is "guaranteed" or made firm and unmovable to everyone who extends that empty but believing hand to His all powerful and sovereign grace. If salvation was in the least bit dependent upon the sinner, the promise could never be thought of as firm and unmovable. But since faith brings no idea of self-worth with it, and since grace is by definition free and unmerited, then salvation itself is wholly the work of God (1 Corinthians 1:30-31), and hence it is certain, firm and can be "guaranteed." Only salvation that is God’s work in its totality can fit this description.

  My friend, do you have the kind of righteousness that Paul spoke of in Philippians 3:9, cited above? Or do you have a standing before God that is based upon what you do, rather than upon what Christ has done in your place? Can you understand why a true Christian cannot help but stand in wonder at these words: "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him" (Romans 4:8)? Have your sins been imputed to Christ, and His righteousness imputed to you by faith? Do you know what it means to have Christ not merely as Savior in name, but in fact, so that your entire trust is in Him and in nothing you can ever do? Can you honestly say you trust Him with your eternal destiny, and fully believe He carried your sins on the cross, and has given His righteousness to you, so that you can stand before the holy God? It is my prayer that if you cannot claim Christ in this way, you will give consideration to these truths, and God will be merciful toward you so as to grant you true faith to embrace His gospel. May God richly bless you as you seek His truth.

  Remember this; or you may fall into error by fixing your minds so much upon the faith which is the channel of salvation as to forget the grace which is the fountain and source even of faith itself. Faith is the work of God’s grace in us. . ."No man comes to me," says Jesus, "except the Father who sent me draws him." So that faith, which is coming to Christ, is the result of divine drawing. Grace is the first and last moving cause of salvation; and faith, essential as it is, is only an important part of the machinery which grace employs. We are saved "through faith," but salvation is "by grace." Sound forth those words as with the archangel’s trumpet: "By grace are you saved." What glad tidings for the undeserving!

  —Charles Spurgeon, All of Grace

  I highly recommend reading Charles Spurgeon’s classic work, All of Grace.